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Dedicated N/A ROM tuning thread

 
Old Apr 23, 2019, 07:30 AM
  #316  
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Hi Rico,
Because there are differences in hardware, it will be reported to P0500. I have found the answer. Are you in Taiwan? Can I communicate with you in Chinese? I'd like to tell you what I know.
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Old Apr 23, 2019, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Gentlme View Post
Hi Rico,
Because there are differences in hardware, it will be reported to P0500. I have found the answer. Are you in Taiwan? Can I communicate with you in Chinese? I'd like to tell you what I know.
Hi Gentlme
Yes , I am in Taiwan , 中文當然ok啊!! 先謝謝您的幫忙!

thanks!!
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Old Apr 30, 2019, 05:27 AM
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hi jajk, above is my DIY log to see if the ignition timing need to lower down at 2.4k rom to 3.9k rpm.....
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Old Apr 30, 2019, 02:16 PM
  #319  
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woomc, there is not enough information to draw any conclusion. On a NA motor running normal fuel, the ign timing is generally set close to the point at which it will start generating knock. You must monitor knocksum to see if timing is too far advanced.
There are many other things to take into consideration like are you being fooled by false knock? The stock knock sensitivity always gives a ton of false knock so this must be addressed first before relying on knocksum as a true indicator. Mitsi also have an annoying acceleration retard mechanism which you can see clearly if you log MUT33 (ign timing map) alongside MUT04 (timing_int). You can then see the amount that the actual timing gets retarded compared to the timing map. This happens differently depending on whether you have a 4B10,11 or 12 and what year, market etc. it is for. The amount of retarding can be controlled but it is a complex process that I will discuss later....
And then there is mivec......the stock mivec maps introduce overlap in all the wrong places because it is not for performance, but to make the engine eat its own exhaust gas (EGR). The problem is that too much ex retard in the wrong places lets too much exhaust gas contaminate the air/fuel mix. This is the original intention but there are some issues with this......first, there is an assumption that the exhaust gets evenly mixed into the air/fuel mix and second, that each cylinder gets an equal share. Both do not happen!!! What you get is a non-uniform share and mixing that alters the explosive properties of the mix so you get random knock in random cylinders. This is what happens when you try to share the exhaust gas pulse from a single cylinder to 4 cylinders.....
So when you have eliminated false knock, made sure your mivec tuning (and AFRs) are not causing the knock, checked the state of accel retard etc. then you can advance or retard as needed with confidence.
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Old May 1, 2019, 08:19 AM
  #320  
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thanks for yr great advise jajk.
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Old May 5, 2019, 06:31 PM
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4G69 tb conversion

Originally Posted by jajk View Post
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/la...l#post11776891 updated with extra pic showing cutout.

I have bored out my stock 57mm throttle body to 60mm which does give the 4B12 a bit more punch. Originally, I bought a 4G69 throttle body off an older model Outlander to transplant but it all came undone due to the throttle position sensors not being compatible - don't go down this track. Also the inlet size is bigger so the stock piping has a hard time fitting over it.

4g69 vs 4B1x throttle body

The stock throttle body could be bored to 62mm but metal will start to get a bit thin and 60mm is more than enough for the 4B12 and probably overkill on a 4B11.

Stock bored to 60mm

To gain a bit more airflow, the rather chunky throttle shaft gets a shave while it is all pulled apart.

Throttle shaft treatment

You will get DTCs immediately and go straight into limp mode if you alter the throttle. The solution is as I have mentioned in the OPs.

Bypassing the water pipes that heat the throttle body is an easy and recommended mod for all who do not live in freezing climates. Pull the 2 hoses off the throttle body and simply join them together with a suitable bit of pipe or adapter.

Wanchai is going to be the first in Thailand with an 8500rpm 4B10 screamer
Myself & a friend have managed to get the 4g69 tb to run on both 4b11 & 4b12 engines by transplanting the 4b1 spindles & tps cover into the 4g69 housing. It works but will throw a fault code & go into limp mode if a/c turns on when all accessories are on at the same time. We both run a merlin tune & he is working on a patch for this, but is no problem as long as a/c isnt used!

Last edited by Manic mechanic; May 5, 2019 at 06:33 PM. Reason: Spelling
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Old May 5, 2019, 11:36 PM
  #322  
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I think people need to clearly state what vehicle they get their throttle bodies from i.e. off a Galant or Outlander or other. Getting something to work but throwing dtcs and going into limp mode is the same as not getting it to work at all.......hmmm......
You will always throw some dtcs if you put a bigger throttle on and that is because there are 2 sets of maps that look at the plausibility of airflow and manifold pressure for given throttle openings.
There are 6 identical "Airflow monitor" maps and 5 identical "MAP plausibility" maps that need to be adjusted to account for the extra airflow and lower Manifold pressures for a given throttle opening. These maps are often defined incorrectly so a brain is required and I have given you the biggest clue you need to work it out
I know for a fact that the cover off the 2004-2006 Outlander 4G69 TB is different to a 4B1x and that the spindles and gears are slightly different between the two. While they can sort of be made to fit, the connections to the electric motor are very dodgy, there is a large backlash in the gears and the TPS sensor alignment is off center. Maybe a 4G69 TB off a later vehicle such as the Galant works fine. I do not know since I have never tried one.
I do know that the evoX 60mm throttle body works and so does the 6G75 65mm thottle body (but is total overkill)
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Old May 6, 2019, 03:32 AM
  #323  
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4G69 throttle body

I don't know which vehicle the 4g69 tb that i used came from as I bought it thru "aliexpress" from China. After clearing the initial fault code it has operated well. I retrofitted the 4b1 TCM into the 4g69 housing as it was obvious the 4g69 TCM terminals did not protrude enough to make proper contact with the tps plug tips. I am interested to hear the EvoX tb works on the NA engine. Does it work straight up or does it also require modifying the 2 maps displayed elsewhere in the forum?!
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Old May 6, 2019, 01:46 PM
  #324  
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All larger throttle bodies will throw dtcs and go into limp mode because they will exceed the plausibility maps - particularly at part throttle. You can drive off the mark O.K but as you go to open the throttle, at some point you will hit the dtc and limp. If you are logging at the time, you will see where the rpm/load area is that needs to be fixed.
Putting a larger throttle body on also has a big effect on the rest of the tuning so initially, your fuel economy will take a huge hit until you sort it out. Look at all the maps that have a throttle opening or accelerator pedal axis and consider the impact that the larger throttle is going to have by having more airflow at the same opening point.
An example is the extra throttle opening for A/C ON or for decel during fuel cut. The stock number of throttle steps to open assumed a 57mm throttle......
Here are the 2 sets of maps that need to be edited....6 x Airflow monitor and 5 x MAP plausibility. Not all maps are active in all ROMs but keep them all the same to be safe



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Old May 6, 2019, 02:23 PM
  #325  
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4g69 throttle body

Would merlin have modified those maps when he reflashed my ecu? I understand what ur saying & it makes total sense, but it is also strange that it seems to be operating well on the vehicle & I've tested it (flogged) across the full rpm band! Are you familiar with Merlin's tunes & do you think they are fully optimised?! You've got me interested in buying a tactrix cable now!
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Old May 6, 2019, 02:52 PM
  #326  
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When you say "fully optimized', depends what you asked for.....Merlin probably gave you what you asked for
An "I just want to go faster than...." or "I am a complete wa#*er and want pops and bangs" tune is totally different to a more sophisticated tune but sophisticated needs to mature over time i.e. cannot be done on a tune day.
How is your economy, ease of driving, performance in different weather conditions? Can you tow a boat or go up a hill without knocking like crazy?
How far into FNQ?
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Old May 6, 2019, 06:36 PM
  #327  
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4g69 throttle body

My version of "optimised" is more like the "fast & furious" series. My old car was a 330hp 6cylinder NA lh Torana built specifically for drag racing but, due to a very close friend, was able to be street registered, so fuel economy, noise levels, handling & towing are absolutely not a consideration!!! I'm a 45 year old hoon who has dropped the old huge cammed multi-carbureted beasts for the refinement of efi & super efficient cylinder head design, which the lancer has in spades! My real question was, can I push this thing any further than merlin has as I believe he does more of a "generic" tune when I really wanted *****-to-the-wall!!!
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Old May 6, 2019, 07:27 PM
  #328  
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Manic mechanic, you are a bit late in migrating to modern engine technologies...just before they become illegal.....start skilling up on electric motor speed controllers
4B12 manual transmission Lancer is good for 160kW. Above that, the injectors are too small, the ex cam doesn't have the lift or duration to flow and the intake manifold runners are too long for hi rpm power making.
The injectors can be given a bit of a kick along if you put a 50psi fuel pump in instead of the 45psi stock.
The best cams are the mildest evoX cams that you can find. Stage 2 cams are a disaster for the NA engines. Camtech do a good one and will grind it to whatever offset you specify which is a huge bonus as the normal offset for evoX cams is not NA friendly.....they will not alter the profile however and only sell these as a pair. 256 degrees in a VVT is about the same a 285 degree cam in a non-VVT but without all the tuning headaches so do not go bigger!!!


As for the intake manifolds......I don't know if ones off other 4B1x based cars like Hyundai/Kia or Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep are better. Maybe someone could get keen and do a cut and shut job on the stock manifold
Buy yourself a wideband O2 sensor/controller and a Tactrix and join the fun

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Old May 7, 2019, 09:50 AM
  #329  
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Hi jajk, is there any Wide band O2 sensor to direct plug in to our 4B1x and in the mean time able to simulate as a short band while also give a wide band readout?

Originally Posted by jajk View Post
Manic mechanic, you are a bit late in migrating to modern engine technologies...just before they become illegal.....start skilling up on electric motor speed controllers
4B12 manual transmission Lancer is good for 160kW. Above that, the injectors are too small, the ex cam doesn't have the lift or duration to flow and the intake manifold runners are too long for hi rpm power making.
The injectors can be given a bit of a kick along if you put a 50psi fuel pump in instead of the 45psi stock.
The best cams are the mildest evoX cams that you can find. Stage 2 cams are a disaster for the NA engines. Camtech do a good one and will grind it to whatever offset you specify which is a huge bonus as the normal offset for evoX cams is not NA friendly.....they will not alter the profile however and only sell these as a pair. 256 degrees in a VVT is about the same a 285 degree cam in a non-VVT but without all the tuning headaches so do not go bigger!!!


As for the intake manifolds......I don't know if ones off other 4B1x based cars like Hyundai/Kia or Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep are better. Maybe someone could get keen and do a cut and shut job on the stock manifold
Buy yourself a wideband O2 sensor/controller and a Tactrix and join the fun
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Old May 7, 2019, 09:53 AM
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Also... I ever seen 4B11 NA on Evo X intake manifold with Evo X fuel rail but use back stock map sensor & stock fuel injector .. heard that able to squeeze out a little more horse ...
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