Isn't our US Lancer pretty much the same thing as......
Originally posted by UFO
I totally disagree. My '02 ES is bone stock and it's an absolute dog. It can't accelerate, understeers, and feels like it's going to roll over during hard cornering. I have taken the ES round an auto-x xourse twice and, while it was fun, it was nowhere even close to competitive. I've also driven an ES with some suspension components and it wasn't much better. The Evo you just get in and go fast, it's that simple. Don't get me wrong, you can throw money at any car and make it handle or go faster, but there is a point where you have to decide how much is too much. Upgrading your suspension and adding a turbo is going to cut into that $15K price difference and, by your own admission, you still end up with a car that doesn't handle as well or go as fast. Boe might be fast, but until I start to see some Lancers running mid 13s then my previous statement still applies. We can bench race all you like, but until someone steps up with some solid numbers then it's pointless. Also, there are Evos running mid 11s now too, and the chances of getting a regular Lancer to that level are slim, unless you're willing to throw more money at the car than it's worth. You can upgrade the engine & suspension on the Evo easily and it's just a better starting block for me.
I totally disagree. My '02 ES is bone stock and it's an absolute dog. It can't accelerate, understeers, and feels like it's going to roll over during hard cornering. I have taken the ES round an auto-x xourse twice and, while it was fun, it was nowhere even close to competitive. I've also driven an ES with some suspension components and it wasn't much better. The Evo you just get in and go fast, it's that simple. Don't get me wrong, you can throw money at any car and make it handle or go faster, but there is a point where you have to decide how much is too much. Upgrading your suspension and adding a turbo is going to cut into that $15K price difference and, by your own admission, you still end up with a car that doesn't handle as well or go as fast. Boe might be fast, but until I start to see some Lancers running mid 13s then my previous statement still applies. We can bench race all you like, but until someone steps up with some solid numbers then it's pointless. Also, there are Evos running mid 11s now too, and the chances of getting a regular Lancer to that level are slim, unless you're willing to throw more money at the car than it's worth. You can upgrade the engine & suspension on the Evo easily and it's just a better starting block for me.
I never said a Lancer would not be outdistanced by an Evo... I stated clearly that the Evo has more potentional (aka your 11's etc).
All told my total suspension/engine etc when completed after next year will come to around 11,000. And "supposedly" I'll make it to about 280 whp or better... So my car cost will be about 26,000 with a full suspension and nearly 300 whp. And the last 11,000 is interest free for me...
The point is OBVIOUSLY if you have 30,000 and you want performance and speed. Get an Evo. If you didn't have it, and already have a Lancer... the fact is you can get a pretty fantastic performance package out of the car for less money, and MOST people wouldn't be able to find the performance difference in the car unless they started doing high speed racing.
I've had people drive my car, and they are shocked at the handling and the spunk it has... It sucked when it was stock.. now its fun... it'll be fantastic when it's done. but I'll never say or pass it off as an EVO or equivalent to one.. it's a different car... and it'll perform amazingly well for what it is.
My overall point is... the Lancer is not some terrible little piece of crap.. it inhereted enough from it's big brother to be a very respectable fun car. And.. the Evo's not some perfect amazing supercar like it is often viewed to be on this board.
Originally posted by sdhotwn sorry man your logic is SERIOUSLY messed up.
All told my total suspension/engine etc when completed after next year will come to around 11,000. And "supposedly" I'll make it to about 280 whp or better... So my car cost will be about 26,000 with a full suspension and nearly 300 whp. And the last 11,000 is interest free for me...
I'm not out to diss anyone's Lancer, we're all Lancers
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Last edited by kdogg; Jan 30, 2004 at 08:45 AM.
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sd, how can you say that the LS and the Evo were not that different? I am totally not trying to flame you! Driven at the limit, these 2 cars are not even close. I really feel that you our trying to justify your purchase for a cheaper car. That's cool, there is noting wrong with watching the bottom line
I just wanted to state that I basically disagree.
I just wanted to state that I basically disagree.
I won't diss on any car.. so I hope you don't think I am 
. I love the EVO too.. and probably will get one to be with my Lancer in a few years...
As far as the hp etc. I made very clear that I was discussing whp. Which is net horsepower put to the road after drivetrain losses. I'm a mechanical engineer with an emphasis in electronic control systems and internal combustion engines... so I think I
have the physics down too.
Lancer = Great Little Car
Evo = Awesome High End performance vehicle
Both have great potential in what they can do... Evo just has more top potential..
Am I clearer?
. I love the EVO too.. and probably will get one to be with my Lancer in a few years... As far as the hp etc. I made very clear that I was discussing whp. Which is net horsepower put to the road after drivetrain losses. I'm a mechanical engineer with an emphasis in electronic control systems and internal combustion engines... so I think I
have the physics down too
. Lancer = Great Little Car
Evo = Awesome High End performance vehicle
Both have great potential in what they can do... Evo just has more top potential..
Am I clearer?
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We all agree that the Lancer isn’t a bad car, but this is a rehash of the same silly argument you get on all these forums. You see it many times comparing the following cars; Mustang to Cobra, Corvette to Z06, any VW 1.8 to vr6, Camaro/ Transam to Corvette, Impreza 2.5 to WRX, WRX to STi, any BMW to its M Series counterpart and the comparison here, Lancer to EVO. You also see it comparing lesser cars to the ultra high performance cars, ex. STi/ EVO v. 996TT, Z06 v Ferrari, or Viper v anything.
The argument goes something like this.
My _____ (note, this can be any car, but typically is a lesser model where there is a new higher output version) can perform as well as the ________ (fill in the corresponding higher performance model) with only $_______ worth of mods (must be less than the cost to move up to the higher performance model). I will save $______ (fill in the difference between the cost to mod lower model and the cost difference between higher and lower performance models) and have just as good or better performance. I’m brilliant!
OK, the last line is just my take. The problem with the above argument with most all cars (I would be willing to bet all) is that after you modded the hell out of your Lancer, it is still just a Lancer. What do you think all those mods are worth when you are ready to trade or sell the car? Ask that question to all those WRX owners that are trying to get out of their modded WRXs. My WRX trade-in was worth $1000 more stock v. with my $3500 worth of mods. . All my mods made my car worth less to trade in. In the end, you just have the lower car with a whole bunch of unrecoverable money dumped in it. You would be better off putting that money towards the higher performance model if that is your performance target.
If performance is your only goal, buy an old Camaro and spend $4000 to $5000 on the engine and suspension and you will have a track car that can hang with just about anything for pretty cheap. If domestics aren’t your thing, buy an old CRX and you can do the same.
Originally posted by kdogg
Adding that you're a mechanical engineer, I guess my logic is totally messed up.
Are you stating a 220 wheel horsepower 2WD car is just as fast as a stock EVO (220whp AWD)?
Adding that you're a mechanical engineer, I guess my logic is totally messed up.
Are you stating a 220 wheel horsepower 2WD car is just as fast as a stock EVO (220whp AWD)?
If they weigh the same, if neither slips traction at all, if their powerbands are similar (effects average overal output), then yes they'd be absolute dead neck and neck.
However, if one has more hp lower than another... if one weighs less, if one slips, if one is geared differently than the other, any of those things.. it all changes.
A lower hp car can beat a higher hp car if it is geared better, or if it doesn't slip and the other does... etc etc... make sense for the most part?
I'd guess a Lancer with good traction at 220 whp would be very even with an EVO at 220 whp because of the weight difference... Make sense?
Originally posted by robertrinaustin
We all agree that the Lancer isn’t a bad car, but this is a rehash of the same silly argument you get on all these forums. You see it many times comparing the following cars; Mustang to Cobra, Corvette to Z06, any VW 1.8 to vr6, Camaro/ Transam to Corvette, Impreza 2.5 to WRX, WRX to STi, any BMW to its M Series counterpart and the comparison here, Lancer to EVO. You also see it comparing lesser cars to the ultra high performance cars, ex. STi/ EVO v. 996TT, Z06 v Ferrari, or Viper v anything.
The argument goes something like this.
My _____ (note, this can be any car, but typically is a lesser model where there is a new higher output version) can perform as well as the ________ (fill in the corresponding higher performance model) with only $_______ worth of mods (must be less than the cost to move up to the higher performance model). I will save $______ (fill in the difference between the cost to mod lower model and the cost difference between higher and lower performance models) and have just as good or better performance. I’m brilliant!
OK, the last line is just my take. The problem with the above argument with most all cars (I would be willing to bet all) is that after you modded the hell out of your Lancer, it is still just a Lancer. What do you think all those mods are worth when you are ready to trade or sell the car? Ask that question to all those WRX owners that are trying to get out of their modded WRXs. My WRX trade-in was worth $1000 more stock v. with my $3500 worth of mods. . All my mods made my car worth less to trade in. In the end, you just have the lower car with a whole bunch of unrecoverable money dumped in it. You would be better off putting that money towards the higher performance model if that is your performance target.
If performance is your only goal, buy an old Camaro and spend $4000 to $5000 on the engine and suspension and you will have a track car that can hang with just about anything for pretty cheap. If domestics aren’t your thing, buy an old CRX and you can do the same.
We all agree that the Lancer isn’t a bad car, but this is a rehash of the same silly argument you get on all these forums. You see it many times comparing the following cars; Mustang to Cobra, Corvette to Z06, any VW 1.8 to vr6, Camaro/ Transam to Corvette, Impreza 2.5 to WRX, WRX to STi, any BMW to its M Series counterpart and the comparison here, Lancer to EVO. You also see it comparing lesser cars to the ultra high performance cars, ex. STi/ EVO v. 996TT, Z06 v Ferrari, or Viper v anything.
The argument goes something like this.
My _____ (note, this can be any car, but typically is a lesser model where there is a new higher output version) can perform as well as the ________ (fill in the corresponding higher performance model) with only $_______ worth of mods (must be less than the cost to move up to the higher performance model). I will save $______ (fill in the difference between the cost to mod lower model and the cost difference between higher and lower performance models) and have just as good or better performance. I’m brilliant!
OK, the last line is just my take. The problem with the above argument with most all cars (I would be willing to bet all) is that after you modded the hell out of your Lancer, it is still just a Lancer. What do you think all those mods are worth when you are ready to trade or sell the car? Ask that question to all those WRX owners that are trying to get out of their modded WRXs. My WRX trade-in was worth $1000 more stock v. with my $3500 worth of mods. . All my mods made my car worth less to trade in. In the end, you just have the lower car with a whole bunch of unrecoverable money dumped in it. You would be better off putting that money towards the higher performance model if that is your performance target.
If performance is your only goal, buy an old Camaro and spend $4000 to $5000 on the engine and suspension and you will have a track car that can hang with just about anything for pretty cheap. If domestics aren’t your thing, buy an old CRX and you can do the same.
I agree
I hate these kind of topics.. so I'm kind of pretty embarrassed about being dead smack in the middle of one. 1) Yep, a Lancer will NEVER be an EVO, and it'll never be worth as much.. and in the end you just have a modded Lancer.
2) Yep, if you are after modding performance go get that CRX or old American muscle and you'll get your fast straightline car... or get something more suited to handling if that is what you want.. and you can do the same thing.
My point from the beginning was that for a lot of people, getting close to the performance of the EVO with what they have now (aka their Lancer) while staying mitsubishi is possible to a REASONABLE extent. They can't expect to go out and beat on Evo's, and certainly not on high speed road tracks. They can expect to get to being competitive 1/4 mile wise. They can expect to have a car that handles extremely well and which they more likely than not won't be able to tell the handling difference. But in the end, they've just spent money to make very fast, very fun to drive LANCER.
To me.. modding and working on your car and doing all the wrench work yourself is hella fun. To try something different to do something yourself. That's worth something in itself. To have a fast Lancer will be fun. To race the hell out of it in 2WD classes will be awesome. The fact that on some days I may be nearly as good as a stock EVO really doesn't mean anything to me, other than that my car (which is barely a Lancer anymore at that point with a different suspension and a heavily altered engine) is just competitive with another great car.
In the end... Go Mitsu 
Originally posted by kdogg
Adding that you're a mechanical engineer, I guess my logic is totally messed up.
Are you stating a 220 wheel horsepower 2WD car is just as fast as a stock EVO (220whp AWD)?
Adding that you're a mechanical engineer, I guess my logic is totally messed up.
Are you stating a 220 wheel horsepower 2WD car is just as fast as a stock EVO (220whp AWD)?
then yes they should be as fast as each other. 220 WHP is the same peak HP number whether it is RWD, AWD, or FWD. Doesn't matter if one engine has 280 at the crank because all that matters is what it can put to the wheels.
Originally posted by UFO
You can't say that about any car. My old Mustang put down more WHP than a Z06 but the 'Vette was still faster thanks to being 400+ lbs lighter, so weight is a variable. Also, it's not just peak WHP that matters, you need a good line with lots of area under the curve. Finally, you need torque, and lots of it. A 220 WHP car with 100 ft/lbs will lose to one with 200 ft/lbs. But, assuming both cars have identical dyno graphs, weigh the same, and are dynoed on the same dyno at the same time on the same day with the same cool down conditions then yes they should be as fast as each other. 220 WHP is the same peak HP number whether it is RWD, AWD, or FWD. Doesn't matter if one engine has 280 at the crank because all that matters is what it can put to the wheels.
You can't say that about any car. My old Mustang put down more WHP than a Z06 but the 'Vette was still faster thanks to being 400+ lbs lighter, so weight is a variable. Also, it's not just peak WHP that matters, you need a good line with lots of area under the curve. Finally, you need torque, and lots of it. A 220 WHP car with 100 ft/lbs will lose to one with 200 ft/lbs. But, assuming both cars have identical dyno graphs, weigh the same, and are dynoed on the same dyno at the same time on the same day with the same cool down conditions
then yes they should be as fast as each other. 220 WHP is the same peak HP number whether it is RWD, AWD, or FWD. Doesn't matter if one engine has 280 at the crank because all that matters is what it can put to the wheels.
220 WHP is the same peak HP number whether it is RWD, AWD, or FWD. Doesn't matter if one engine has 280 at the crank because all that matters is what it can put to the wheels.
You cannot compare a 2WD dynosheet with a AWD dynosheet. Every tuner on EVOM.net has mentioned that. Bushur Racings's 2WD dyno numbers are always higher for stock EVO's than Pruven's or Vishnu's. AWD dyno ratings are different than those of 2WD. I'm not arguing over the physics of horsepower, but I'm stating the dynos are measured differently.
I can find an online link, but SCC listed the top 10 cars for under $30K. The dynonumbers for a 350Z Track and the EVO were almost identical ~250whp (following our arguments). How is it possible that a EVO can smoke a 350Z by a pretty significant margin? Both have the same whp ratings? How can the EVO match accerlation numbers to a 333hp M3 and almost match a 390hp SVT Cobra?
Bottom line, bring me a dynoed 220whp 2WD car and my stock EVO will smoke it.