"Everything just fits." Enthusiast finds 2JZ-GTE can fit into BMW Z4 like a breeze
Jun 11, 2018, 07:35 PM
#1
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"Everything just fits." Enthusiast finds 2JZ-GTE can fit into BMW Z4 like a breeze
He also has a build thread: http://www.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1286408
I am impressed. I always think E89 Z4 has the most beautiful bodylines and chassis simplicity, with or without the Varis GT body kit. This guy fitted a Mk IV Supra's 2JZ-GTE into a E85/E86 Z4 and proved that wiring can be seamless and weight distribution can stay about the same (post swap: 53% front 47% rear). Here I think I have found the best chassis for an enthusiast's garage-built Supra re-imagined: Why not put the storied 2JZ-GTE into a BMW Z4? A E89 with 2JZ-GTE (BW EFR 7670), T56 Magnum 6MT, and Ohlins will be the dream of a daily driver.
Last edited by Lightsaber; Jun 24, 2018 at 12:30 PM. Reason: Moved technical info to reply post
Jun 12, 2018, 06:17 PM
#3
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It does appear that from a photo (below) in dre99gsx's build thread, the transmission looks like GS6-37BZ 6MT, to which my understanding is a fairly weak transmission. No idea what sorceries are taking place there.
If it's an E89 Z4 with GS6-53BZ 6MT (found in E89 35i versions) rated around 445 lb⋅ft, that transmission might have chance. I would certainly favor CD009 (similar gear ratios as V160) or T56 (lower gear ratio, like a V160 started with the 2nd gear but added a 7th gear) for such swap though if I were in his shoes.
_________________
A quick Google search revealed some more info on choosing a transmission for 2JZ (E89 Z4's rear tire size is 255/30R19. Tire height (diameter) is 25 in):
V160 (MkIV TT): 3.827 - 2.360 - 1.685 - 1.312 - 1.000 - 0.793 - reverse 3.280 - final drive 3.266
V161 (TT w/ VVT): 3.724 - 2.246 - 1.541 - 1.205 - 1.000 - 0.818 - reverse 3.192 - final drive 3.266 (50 mph at 1st 8,200 RPM; 80 mph at 6th 2,880 RPM)
CD009 (350Z 6MT): 3.784 - 2.324 - 1.624 - 1.271 - 1.000 - 0.794 - reverse 3.45 - final drive 3.538
T56 Magnum close ratio: 2.66 - 1.78 - 1.30 - 1.00 - 0.80 - 0.63 - reverse 2.90 - (e.g. 30i 6MT open diff) final drive 4.27 (54 mph at 1st 8,200 RPM; 80 mph 6th at 2,300 RPM)
T56 Magnum wide ratio: 2.97 - 2.10 - 1.46 - 1.00 - 0.74 - 0.50 - reverse 2.90 - (e.g. Quaife/OSG LSD) final drive 3.46 (59 mph at 1st 8,200 RPM; 80 mph 6th at 2,350 RPM)
For reference, Evo's W5M6A 5MT: 2.857 - 1.950 - 1.444 - 1.096 - 0.761 - reverse 2.892 - final drive 4.687 (43 mph at 1st 7,600 RPM; 80 mph 5th at 3,750 RPM)
Supra fans seem to favor Magnum over CD009:
When considering all this info combined, Magnum wide ratio (2.97) might be the best transmission for such hypothetical. Magnum is more suited than CD009 to hold 2JZ's torque. Off-the-shelf LSDs for E85/E86/E89's final drives are usually 3.46 only, so the wide ratio version will provide better daily performance.
By the way, Magnum wide ratio (2.97) with a BMW 4.27 final drive will have a very similar gearing as the Supra Turbo (48 mph at 1st gear redline 8,200 RPM; 80 mph 6th gear cruising at 2,880 RPM). However, application of a 4.27 final drive LSD into a E89 Z4 likely means a rather large differential and rather expensive custom work.
There is also an interesting reading on SupraForums, for those who are curious:
Source: http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...rear-end-setup
If it's an E89 Z4 with GS6-53BZ 6MT (found in E89 35i versions) rated around 445 lb⋅ft, that transmission might have chance. I would certainly favor CD009 (similar gear ratios as V160) or T56 (lower gear ratio, like a V160 started with the 2nd gear but added a 7th gear) for such swap though if I were in his shoes.
_________________
A quick Google search revealed some more info on choosing a transmission for 2JZ (E89 Z4's rear tire size is 255/30R19. Tire height (diameter) is 25 in):
V160 (MkIV TT): 3.827 - 2.360 - 1.685 - 1.312 - 1.000 - 0.793 - reverse 3.280 - final drive 3.266
V161 (TT w/ VVT): 3.724 - 2.246 - 1.541 - 1.205 - 1.000 - 0.818 - reverse 3.192 - final drive 3.266 (50 mph at 1st 8,200 RPM; 80 mph at 6th 2,880 RPM)
CD009 (350Z 6MT): 3.784 - 2.324 - 1.624 - 1.271 - 1.000 - 0.794 - reverse 3.45 - final drive 3.538
T56 Magnum close ratio: 2.66 - 1.78 - 1.30 - 1.00 - 0.80 - 0.63 - reverse 2.90 - (e.g. 30i 6MT open diff) final drive 4.27 (54 mph at 1st 8,200 RPM; 80 mph 6th at 2,300 RPM)
T56 Magnum wide ratio: 2.97 - 2.10 - 1.46 - 1.00 - 0.74 - 0.50 - reverse 2.90 - (e.g. Quaife/OSG LSD) final drive 3.46 (59 mph at 1st 8,200 RPM; 80 mph 6th at 2,350 RPM)
For reference, Evo's W5M6A 5MT: 2.857 - 1.950 - 1.444 - 1.096 - 0.761 - reverse 2.892 - final drive 4.687 (43 mph at 1st 7,600 RPM; 80 mph 5th at 3,750 RPM)
Supra fans seem to favor Magnum over CD009:
By the way, Magnum wide ratio (2.97) with a BMW 4.27 final drive will have a very similar gearing as the Supra Turbo (48 mph at 1st gear redline 8,200 RPM; 80 mph 6th gear cruising at 2,880 RPM). However, application of a 4.27 final drive LSD into a E89 Z4 likely means a rather large differential and rather expensive custom work.
There is also an interesting reading on SupraForums, for those who are curious:
Sadly there's not much more to go on - if you want T56 friendly ratios, you're stuck to the smaller 200mm rear diff ala TT auto & NA.
The prime point of awesomeness in the T56 is that with that super tall .63 6th gear, you can cruise at ~80mph highway speeds @ low RPM with a really low (numerically high) rear end final drive ratio.
The V160 achieved the same gear spread awesomeness the other way around, by using a super granny-gear 1st to match well with a very tall (numerically low) final drive ratio. Which is why all the 6-spd TT's had 3.133:1 or 3.266:1 rear end ratios - while most performance T56 setups run a 3.73:1 or higher. So yes, your TT auto's 3.769:1 should match up pretty well with the T56.
Plenty of guys I know with F-bodies and Cobras on T56's are running 4.11:1's or 4.27:1's or even higher, depending on the tire height. Taller wheel/tire combos need numerically higher rear end ratios to keep the ratio spread the same. That being said, I honestly would call most T56's about on par with an R154 as far as HP holding, sans the R154 1st gear thrust washer problem.
The Gforce T56's can hold a **** ton, but as already mentioned, you won't find one for anything less than V160 money.
While the typically lower TQ values of a 1000hp 2JZ vs 1000hp LSx's and Mod motors does have a factor in saving driveline parts, from my experience I think driveline shock & wheelhop kill more parts than outright torque or hp, so even with a weaker T56 you should be okay with a 200mm rear diff and all the associated parts & such so long as you avoid drag radials and do the solid diff bushings, etc to avoid wheel hop. The 200mm rear diff carrier might be weaker than the 6-spd's 220mm carrier, but that hasn't stopped other guys in swapped SC's and TT autos from dipping into the 9's with them. Granted, autos tend to be a lot easier on driveline parts.
Just don't run drag radials & don't run solid puck clutches!
As much as I truly hate the idea of a T56 in a MK4 when the V160 is so much better, I am curious to see how your setup works out. Regardless of what gearbox it has (or even what's under the hood :nervous
I'd rather see more MK4's on the street driving and kickin' *** than sitting cooped up as garage queens.
The prime point of awesomeness in the T56 is that with that super tall .63 6th gear, you can cruise at ~80mph highway speeds @ low RPM with a really low (numerically high) rear end final drive ratio.
The V160 achieved the same gear spread awesomeness the other way around, by using a super granny-gear 1st to match well with a very tall (numerically low) final drive ratio. Which is why all the 6-spd TT's had 3.133:1 or 3.266:1 rear end ratios - while most performance T56 setups run a 3.73:1 or higher. So yes, your TT auto's 3.769:1 should match up pretty well with the T56.
Plenty of guys I know with F-bodies and Cobras on T56's are running 4.11:1's or 4.27:1's or even higher, depending on the tire height. Taller wheel/tire combos need numerically higher rear end ratios to keep the ratio spread the same. That being said, I honestly would call most T56's about on par with an R154 as far as HP holding, sans the R154 1st gear thrust washer problem.
The Gforce T56's can hold a **** ton, but as already mentioned, you won't find one for anything less than V160 money.
While the typically lower TQ values of a 1000hp 2JZ vs 1000hp LSx's and Mod motors does have a factor in saving driveline parts, from my experience I think driveline shock & wheelhop kill more parts than outright torque or hp, so even with a weaker T56 you should be okay with a 200mm rear diff and all the associated parts & such so long as you avoid drag radials and do the solid diff bushings, etc to avoid wheel hop. The 200mm rear diff carrier might be weaker than the 6-spd's 220mm carrier, but that hasn't stopped other guys in swapped SC's and TT autos from dipping into the 9's with them. Granted, autos tend to be a lot easier on driveline parts.
Just don't run drag radials & don't run solid puck clutches!
As much as I truly hate the idea of a T56 in a MK4 when the V160 is so much better, I am curious to see how your setup works out. Regardless of what gearbox it has (or even what's under the hood :nervous
I'd rather see more MK4's on the street driving and kickin' *** than sitting cooped up as garage queens.Last edited by Lightsaber; Jun 24, 2018 at 12:31 PM. Reason: Added info
Jun 13, 2018, 04:15 PM
#5
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I guess many BMW guys like turning to Japanese for two reasons. One, twin-turbo N54 powered Z4's with manual are too desirable and hard to find in the used car market. Two, as this thread says it, "[N54 is] completely unproven and not designed to be the workhorse that the 2JZ was": https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=96210
Jun 14, 2018, 07:17 PM
#6
Seems like a pretty pointless swap IMO. Over the years there are countless guys who've made 700-800whp on factory longblock N54s. Just needs a big turbo, clutch and fuel and they hold almost quadruple digit power. The stock manual trans used in the 135i and 335i also have no issue holding the power, not sure if the Z4 had the same trans.
Jun 14, 2018, 08:51 PM
#7
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For reliable daily driving and a happy relationship, N54 usually can run 400whp with stock twins, and 500whp with single turbo setup. While open deck, N54 is reasonably strong, but its HPFP and fuel system has limits. Going too many horses and you risk running lean. So for big horsepower freaks, 2JZ indeed surpasses N54.
That said, I think the beauty of this is really not horsepower. The build revives the Supra in a way that she reincarnates into a cutie BMW Z4.
That said, I think the beauty of this is really not horsepower. The build revives the Supra in a way that she reincarnates into a cutie BMW Z4.
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Jun 14, 2018, 10:54 PM
#8
I think the N54 will become the new 2JZ. There are tons more N54s available in the US. Thank god BMW put this engine in multiple models.
Even though its direct injection and has a limited parts selection at the moment there is a chance of it replacing the 2JZ.
What needs to happen is the aftermarket part support for this engine needs to become larger. It would take a company or individual familiar with the platform to make turbo kits, intake manifolds, and other parts to increase performance. That way the competition in the market would drive down the price of the parts.
Once the parts and knowledge of the platform become well-known then there will be a shift to these engines.
Even though its direct injection and has a limited parts selection at the moment there is a chance of it replacing the 2JZ.
What needs to happen is the aftermarket part support for this engine needs to become larger. It would take a company or individual familiar with the platform to make turbo kits, intake manifolds, and other parts to increase performance. That way the competition in the market would drive down the price of the parts.
Once the parts and knowledge of the platform become well-known then there will be a shift to these engines.
Last edited by deylag; Jun 15, 2018 at 09:54 AM.
Jun 14, 2018, 11:23 PM
#9
The N54 aftermarket has exploded in the past two years, that shift is already underway. There are options for turbo kits, intake manifolds, fueling options. Making large power is fairly easy once a port injection system is added. Hell you don't even need a different intake manifold, there's already multiple companies that sell injector sandwich plates. Just look at what Docrace has come out with in the past six months alone.
Jun 15, 2018, 10:26 AM
#10
Yea port injection has multiple benefits and fuel pump kits are easy to make. Another benefit of the N54 is that it's a straight six twin turbo so existing designs for the 2JZ and RB26 only need to be modified slightly in order to mate up to the N54. A large single twin-scroll turbo and a free flowing intake manifold with a sleeved block with upgraded pistons and rods and I believe it can get to 1000hp. Possibly even more power once the parts are optimized through trial and error.
Yes I have seen the Docrace parts. They look to be quality pieces but again its one individual producing this part. Where the big BMW aftermarket companies with similar production capabilities haven't done anything. That's the problem with BMW. The M cars get all the attention and the rest have to stay slower.
Yes I have seen the Docrace parts. They look to be quality pieces but again its one individual producing this part. Where the big BMW aftermarket companies with similar production capabilities haven't done anything. That's the problem with BMW. The M cars get all the attention and the rest have to stay slower.
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