Balrok

iTrader: (15)

Ed's up front, he doesn't mean to **** people off, it just comes off that way . But back to your question Ed, Robert was AT the track with me, so the setup was optimum. Tire probe for temps, pressures, same tire, same weight, same driver for over a year on that setup then. He even asked me why I had not done that and the LSD already because the OEM config "pushes." His words. I can actually feel the difference on mid corner when your exiting rolling onto the throttle. It's a no BS mod buddy. The factory ACD, much like the LSD, is setup for lame conditions. 6 seconds, ya that's a driver improvement for sure not really the ACD. But from the research i've done and people I talked to over the past year it's worth it. And free for us points wise....so why the hell not

boomn29

iTrader: (47)

Posted up a graph here:
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/9787911-post19.html

kyoo

iTrader: (29)

Awesome results - I think the other factor to consider is that it allows for a more optimal/faster setup. Way back before all the rear diff stuff I remember some guys would run huge rear bars just to get their setups to rotate.. Even if it was actually slower - then after rear diff mods people started moving away from that to optimize their setups, and I think a few have even recommended running a bigger front bar now.

The question seems like exactly how much more, and how much less time? If you gain any time at all just by swapping, you have to imagine there is a new optimum by adjusting the setup to take advantage of the mod even further, and that the new optimum will be at a higher level.

Bueller

iTrader: (1)

If youre trying to apologize, i accept because people misunderstand forum talk all the time. At the same rate, i will be honest and say that i was taken back with how you handled yourself. If youre representing this product youre going to have to be ready for people getting right to the point and challenging you to prove them wrong. On the other hand im thinking maybe its because you dont post in this section, or you dont really interact with us here and youre not used to people with a little bit of experience challenging you on that level. At least i dont recall seeing you around here. As absurd as it may sound to you, i dont think you realize that im helping you out. For one thing, i thought your presentation was misleading. You cant expect to say something like..."The normal time to drop on a road course is 2-4 seconds"...and not hear a mouthful of challenges. Maybe some noobs will buy it, or other people will want to sound nice so they can befriend you, but it wont happen around me and i know there are a few people here, who actually have the experience, that feel the same way.

Again, i dont doubt there is something to be gained from your mod and im willing to prove myself wrong, but i dont see how my car will be 2-4sec faster on the tracks i race on. At best, id say maybe around .5sec if im lucky. If i met you in person, i would have peppered you with the same line of questions and arguments to see how you will handle my challenges. Not sure how you completely missed the mark, but you obviously didnt realize that im a potential customer. In all honesty youve turned me off with how you responded. Among other things, you already said you dont care and that youre done. So basically, you turned away a potential customer and you dismissed my challenge to prove me wrong.

Well then you have way more experience than i do. So it surprises me that someone with your amount of experience would even think about mentioning the 6sec result, let alone actually post it without some serious detail and background info. For one thing, youre trivializing the quality of your product by mentioning it like that. And only a driver who doesnt have much experience would boast about it. Because as you can see, at least Nate voiced his agreement that a result like that is laughable for people like us.

Again, im still trying to help you out but i dont think you will understand that until someday down the line. My suggestion to you would be to have someone we know test your product. Since Matt B has something similar, get one to Nate because he has the experience. Have Nate test it all season on the tracks he typically runs on. Preferably have him run those tracks at least twice throughout the year during weekend events. And its obviously best if he can drive the entire year so hes not taking huge breaks in between events. Although, i know from my own experience that is very difficult to expect because it will be a major financial obligation for him to undertake that level of testing. So id also suggest in good faith that you help him out a bit financially because Nate is a good guy and hes been around. Having seen how he approaches things im sure he will be straightforward with his feedback. Either way, regardless of what data Nate gathers, i still dont see how my car will be any faster than .5sec at best. If the hand of God plays a factor then maybe close to 1sec, but id still say thats a major stretch. Believe it or not, ive helped you out greatly, and i do it because...i care.

Bueller

iTrader: (1)

You know i love sounding like a broken record...i dont doubt there is something to be gained from this product, but i dont see how my car will be 2-4sec faster on the tracks i race on. At best, id say maybe around .5sec if im lucky. If im on the gas any sooner while in a corner i might as well not brake at all.

lan_evo_mr9

iTrader: (10)

&

Ed,

I do apologize for how I handled myself- it was inappropriate. Please understand that all I hear is "it doesn't work, etc"- I'm almost at my ropes end of dealing with that. You are correct that I don't visit this portion of the forum and I'm not used to interacting with more experienced racers who have their cars built to the T. It never even crossed my mind that you would be a potential customer by how much you discounted it- once again, due to my claims- read on...

The reason I was so combative was because you didn't seem to want to even believe that this mod was legit, and that was most likely due to my 2-4 sec claim. But please understand, most evo's, I'd say 75% or more are not built like yours or other people's in this section. That 2-4 applies to that other 75%, not extreme evo's built to the max of the rule book for what ever league they are in. I should have done a bit more research on the cars/drivers that are in this portion and make the appropriate time drop claims. I do think you will get more than .5 off though... more like 1-2 off honestly.

Matt

lan_evo_mr9

iTrader: (10)

Also, as far as track data is concerned, I have been testing this technology on my car mostly and a few others across the world for over a year. If I were to tell you my results, which I am, nobody will believe me because they think I'm just trying to make money. Honestly, my goal is to see evo's rule the track- nothing more. I have a decent job that doesn't even require me to do this- I choose to put this out there for other folks to reap the rewards- just a little back ground there.

I do see how you are helping me- in a f'd up way, but helping me none the less. LOL. And for that, I thank you. This was a great lesson in starting a business and trying to convince people of a new technology.

Matt

boomn29

iTrader: (47)

I hear that Nate guy is super cool and an awesome driver!

Btw, I was checking out the website and see it's possible to get up to 3 differently tuned ACD maps. This is the first I've heard of this, other tunes (like Gruppe-S that few people did) I believe were just progressive maps.
Info --> http://www.acd-tuning.com/products.html
So would it be possible to keep 1 map completely stock - like my Tarmac setting. Then update one of the other settings? That'd be a no risk proposition since if I didn't like the update, I could just switch back to the stock setup. It'd also allow back-to-back testing. Is something like this possible?

I never use Snow at all anymore and really don't use Gravel either. Even when on the track and it's raining, I like the Tarmac setting as I like to have control of the car - plus I like to have fun with the extra oversteer especially since the upgraded Shep Rear Diff is in there!

Balrok

iTrader: (15)

Cool, so Matt start another thread in Motorsports section when your ready with your data and flame shield .

If you want to explore putting your program on other cars that race semi-regular let us know . I happen to have a stock ACD sitting on the shelf I could do back to back between Gruppe and yours as well when the season starts up.

lan_evo_mr9

iTrader: (10)

Send me your stock acd unit and pm me with your vehicle setup and what tracks you frequent most please.

Matt

Bueller

iTrader: (1)

No problem, apology accepted. I understand how forum discussions can be completely misunderstood. Having said that, here is what your approach should have been like...everyone is a potential customer. As far as me not thinking your mod is legit, i never said anything like that. If you go back and read what ive written i think youll see that i never said anything like that. In fact, several times i said...i dont doubt there is something to be gained from this product. Im only skeptical with how much its going to reduce my lap times on the tracks i race on. Im just being completely honest with you and getting right to the points that are important for me.

Again, please dont take offense to what im saying because im being completely honest. And if we met i would pretty much say the same things. Problem is that when you type it verbatim on a forum, it comes across as harsh or something entirely different. Regarding your data, it honestly doesnt mean much to me at this juncture. For one thing, i dont know who you are or what type of driver you actually are. You say you finished 2nd place over 200 drivers. Who were those 199 other drivers? Are all their cars in your class? If all of them are in your class are all their cars actually front running cars? Are they seasoned and really fast drivers? Are we talking about an autox event where the nations top tier national champion drivers, past and present, competed at an event all in the same class with front running cars?

Beyond that, being an autox champion, or time attack champion, or even a NASA/SCCA regional champion in some racing series doesnt really mean much to me. Autox and TA dont apply to me. Besides, there are a lot of autox and TA champions that are really no better than some HPDE 2-3 level drivers. Some classes only have 1 or no more than a handful of drivers. And if there are plenty of cars, most of them arent front running cars, or the drivers really dont care much and just show up to have fun. Or like i said earlier, most of those drivers are really no better than some HPDE 2-3 lever drivers. As far as even some NASA/SCCA champions, there are plenty of classes that really arent that competitive. Even on the National level. For instance, you could be a National champion in 1 NASA/SCCA class, but not do any better than top 20 in a class thats really competitive. I have non-podium finishes that to me are more noteworthy than some of my wins. And to some people my wins really mean nothing. My point is that results by themselves can be misleading.

I dont think i was helping you out in a f’d up way at all. Im a potential customer. And im sure your product can help me, but im skeptical by how much. So i was honest and to the point. If i told you in person i dont think you would have felt that way or responded the way you did. When you type it verbatim, as i said before, some people interpret it differently. Im sure youre working very hard and i respect that, but im also sure you will have to work harder as things progress. And if you take a step back and reflect on what ive said i think you can gain something from it. Furthermore, i also think that if you get the right people from this section on board with you not only will you be helping out yourself but also the people that have been around. If you didnt know who Nate and Matt B were, i informed you about them. What do i have to gain by saying that? IMO, you should definitely deal with David Fazzino, he races his Evo in ST2 like me. Difference is that David has been racing for years. Then theres Ryan Upham, he started racing recently like Matt B, only difference is Ryan raced at Nationals this year. David, Ryan, and Matt race in ST2, and Nate competes in TTA and i think is considering racing next year. There are others that do TT also i just dont remember them right now. Then theres Marty Grand. Hes been racing for years also, but with SCCA. A seasoned and decorated racer, but i dont know what his plans are and whether or not this mod can be used in T2. Id say that would be a great group of people for you to speak with. And so i dont confuse you, sure im also interested, but in all honesty i dont have the time right now to commit myself to something on this scale.

In closing i want to go back for a moment to touch base on this part of your post. The only part i sort of agree with what youre saying here is that as your car progresses certain mods may only reward you minimal results. Even though i see what youre saying about your example...adding coilovers equals dropping 3sec, adding sway bars and you can drop 1sec, or adjusting your alignment can give you 2sec. The thing is that i dont see it that way. I dont look at it and think if i add coilovers im going to potentially drop 3sec and so forth. The way i look at it is that everything works in concert, like how Nate put it. Someone with just coilovers can be as fast as someone with coilovers and sway bars because its in the setup. To a certain extent its all give and take. So if youre already optimized enough with just coilovers you may not be faster by adding sway bars because your spring rates and tires and alignment and whatever else is in concert. Thats why i dont think the way you put it...ie you cant expect to slap on mods and drop time like that. Everything is connected to a certain extent and you adjust things accordingly to acquire whatever type of balance youre working towards. Long story short, that is the root of my skepticism of your claims. So do i think your mod has benefits? I think it does. Im optimistic, and i think it can be another great tool for me that i can use to adjust my setup. But i think at best my car might be .5sec faster. Maybe slightly more, maybe slightly less, or maybe i wont see any gains.

kyoo

iTrader: (29)

Which course are you thinking of regarding that half a second? Is your current setup optimal/the way you want it, or are you looking for more/less rotation, more grip etc?

You asked/suggested that Balrok's setup wasn't optimum, and yet he responded with more than enough evidence to suggest he was (post 31), and he still picked up 1.5-3 seconds. Obviously the more complex/corners the course, the greater the magnitude of the drop. Just wondering your response to that.

Actually though, I understand your skepticism totally. Why don't you try a flash, use all of your timing equipment telemetrics etc and report the results? I'm sure if they were less than satisfying something could be worked out. At your level, with your car prepped the way it is and the level you compete at even .5 seconds is no small beans. How else are you going to achieve a free .5 second drop? It's like you said, the more prepped the car, most likely the smaller the magnitude of the gain - however, at the same time, the more prepped/competitive the car, the more valuable any small gain is.

Thoughts?

Bueller

iTrader: (1)

Good questions overall. In Socal we race at Buttonwillow, Big Willow, and Auto Club Speedway. I have the TRE-rear diff. If this mod resembles it in any way my gut feeling is that it will help me most at BRP, which is a relatively long track with many low-mid speed corners. And that is the only track i see myself gaining that .5sec. I really dont need more or less rotation or anything to that effect. With a few adjustments to tire pressures, and my rebound/compression settings and i can adjust how much i want my car to rotate. And the TRE-rear diff helps even more. So if im on the gas any sooner while in a corner i might as well not brake at all. Thats why im thinking i wont see anymore than .5sec with this mod.

As far as Balrok, i really dont know what it is, but something isnt adding up for me. Id have to do a weekend event with him to know better. It could be driver comfort or preference. His acd flash might be the missing link in his setup because of driving style. Wont know unless i do an event with him.

As for me, id love to prove myself wrong. Im all for it. And ill come back here and tell everyone that i was wrong because here are the results...im 2sec faster. But im going with my gut, and i dont see myself gaining anything more than .5sec to slightly more than that at best. And i want to clear something up because i dont think i did a good job of it earlier...for me, .5sec would absolutely be huge. In no way did i mean to discount how huge that would be for me. And id love to undertake this test but in all honesty i dont have the time right now. Maybe later on in the season i will contact Matt and see if we can set something up.

DaveK

iTrader: (21)

I think this is worth highlighting in a big way. Let me see if I can try to expand on this a bit using a fairly basic example (that's probably too simple).

Take a car that's pushing. There are many ways to fix this:

-tire pressures
-shock valving
-spring rates
-front sway bar
-rear sway bar
-rear diff
-ACD tune

Lets say person X decides they want to slap a big rear sway bar on this understeering car because they've tried the freebie options (tire pressures and shock tweaks) and still have the issue. Maybe the RSB solves the problem...but, what they've actually done is to REMOVE grip from the rear of the car, so the car's overall grip level has been reduced.

Now, going back to the 2 or 3 guys that have spent huge hours dialing in their cars. I'd be willing to bet they didn't go the cheap route, but rather have focused in on ways to increase the grip at the front end, therefore increasing overall grip. My suspicion is the guys finding huge time in their cars are finding it in cars that drive pretty damn good, but may not have been as meticulously optimized.

At the end of the day, the center diff is there to try and cut down on the wheel speed differences between the front and rear of the car (i.e. wheelspin). The advantage of the electronic center diff is that you can tailor its locked/unlocked nature based on different variables.

When you're racing on a surface where wheelspin isn't much of a concern, the advantages of the technology are diminished...which is why I suspect these MoTeC boxes and Ralliart flashes have been utilized extensively for years in the rally community but not so much in road racing and auto-x circles.

Dave

kyoo

iTrader: (29)

on the rear diff. I had Jon@TRE reshim my Cusco and add the HD sideplate, I think he's really a genius when it comes to the drivetrain.

Anyway, I'm definitely with you here, and did understand exactly where you were going in your posts. Especially for guys like you with the experience and preparation who have tried dozens and dozens of suspensions and setups to eek out tenths, something so simple is nearly impossible to believe (though anyone would want to, badly, and be looking for proof it), or almost even insulting, I would think.

One comment in regard to what the ACD flash offers - I would say that it's not necessarily more rotation, but effectively more rear torque that is put down to the ground. Especially for a car with a rear diff mod, that effective torque is then channeled through the rear diff to the outside wheel - creating more "push" forward from the outside rear. For some cars/setups the end result may be more rotation.

My idea is this, and this also addresses what DaveK was saying about various ways of adding more rotation: While you can, with your car as it is, set it up to oversteer or understeer however you please with sway bars and other suspension adjustments, the difference between rotation caused by this mod and rotation from suspension setup is that rotation from this mod is the only one that is essentially caused by more power going to the back end. So, unlike rotation from suspension setup, with a modification that increases power to the rear you can then take steps add back grip to the rear - theoretically if you add back grip to reach that same level of desired rotation, then what you should have is a car that performs at a higher level. I could be wrong in this theory, so please tell me if I am.

Also, more effective torque going to the rear end is roughly equivalent to more speed. Obviously this doesn't occur in straights but in corners, where there is a delta between the front and the rear. So, theoretically, let's say in every corner exit you get a boost of power to the rear end (more like a boost of power efficiency/less drivetrain loss). This should result in a higher corner speed, and importantly a higher speed down the stretch of the straight. While the benefits are undoubtedly huge for cars that run on surfaces where the tires break loose often, I am suggesting that there is still a tangible and significant (by whatever metric of time your competitive level defines that as) gain from this modifcation


One last thing I'd like to clarify is my motivation for pushing this mod (and many others I've done in the past) - basically, I've already got mine; what I'm looking for and hoping for is to raise the level of competitiveness of the CT9A chassis. I have been bragging to all my friends of Nate's success this past year, breaking all sorts of records (including those set by a certain Evo X...) The threads in my sig are ones that I started in order to raise that level of competitiveness. ie., I was and am a big pusher of the rear differential mods, by the rear diff mods thread that I started nearly 2 years ago. ACD tuning is the latest area of improvement for the CT9A that I'm looking to improve. Actually I wanted to start the ACD "revolution" (note acd flashing thread start date) around that time as well, but neither the market nor the population was ready. Hopefully things will be different now, especially with the options available (notably Matt's ACD-Tuning)