2015 SCCA B Street EVO discussion
Nov 13, 2014, 03:39 PM
#1
2015 SCCA B Street EVO discussion
So finally after several years the SCCA has switched Stock/Street class to street tires. Thank goodness! R-comps on a car with stock suspension never made any sense to me. It was expensive, you couldn't drive to and from to the event on them and changing tires on hot days sucked. On camber challenged cars you wore the outside shoulders too quickly. Which is why I switched to STU.
With all the reshuffling that has been happening I think the EVO 8/9 stands a decent chance in B-street, especially at local events, possibly even at National events with a very good driver (not me). Thus I'm planning on bringing my old EVO8 out of retirement. Comparing it to the 2 biggest hitters in the class:
Yes it is heavier than the S2000, about 400lb difference assuming a curb weight of 2800lbs for the Honda and 3200lbs for the EVO8/9. While having a 40HP power advantage.
It doesn't have as much power as C5 Corvette while weighing about the same (3200lbs). 345HP vs 278HP.
.... but it has AWD. Which allows it to launch aggressively off the line and accelerate out of the corners. Why is this now a big deal? Because I believe street tires are now the equalizer, the RWD S2000s and Corvettes can no longer accelerate as aggressively out of corners using R-comps which IMHO, negated most of the AWD advantage. Also the S2000 are limited on rim width which limits them on the width of tires. They can't balloon Hoosiers on the stock size rims anymore. There is diminishing returns on going wider with street tires on narrow rims.
The other 2 contenders are the Audi TT Quattro moving from DS and the 370Z moving from BS. Both weight about 3200lbs and have wider rims that allow wider street tires. The TT has 9" wide rims that allow upto 275 wide tires, AWD and depending on the model has 250HP.
Over the years a lot of info has been learned a lot about the EVO. The stock rear diff mod allows on throttle rotation, which is free and legal. The old A-Stock thread points to not having on throttle rotation being the EVO's Achilles's heel, which can now be legally fixed. My EVO 8 MR will be demodded from STU and will be used to compete in the local Rocky Mountain region auto-xes next year. I'm almost there, all the aftermarket bits are off, just waiting to install a few stock parts.
This winter auto-x I've been co-driving a buddy's stock EVO X. And we're not doing too bad for a stock EVO X. Both of us PAX'ed top 10. Luckily we have multiple National champs and Trophy winners in our region and our local courses are pretty fast. So it will be a good way to see how I index in the car next year.
Given the age of the car, I wonder if there are any stock/street EVO racers left. I hope to get a discussion going to see how the rest of you are doing in your local regions.
Older threads:
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/mo...roll-call.html
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/mo...ock-class.html
With all the reshuffling that has been happening I think the EVO 8/9 stands a decent chance in B-street, especially at local events, possibly even at National events with a very good driver (not me). Thus I'm planning on bringing my old EVO8 out of retirement. Comparing it to the 2 biggest hitters in the class:
Yes it is heavier than the S2000, about 400lb difference assuming a curb weight of 2800lbs for the Honda and 3200lbs for the EVO8/9. While having a 40HP power advantage.
It doesn't have as much power as C5 Corvette while weighing about the same (3200lbs). 345HP vs 278HP.
.... but it has AWD. Which allows it to launch aggressively off the line and accelerate out of the corners. Why is this now a big deal? Because I believe street tires are now the equalizer, the RWD S2000s and Corvettes can no longer accelerate as aggressively out of corners using R-comps which IMHO, negated most of the AWD advantage. Also the S2000 are limited on rim width which limits them on the width of tires. They can't balloon Hoosiers on the stock size rims anymore. There is diminishing returns on going wider with street tires on narrow rims.
The other 2 contenders are the Audi TT Quattro moving from DS and the 370Z moving from BS. Both weight about 3200lbs and have wider rims that allow wider street tires. The TT has 9" wide rims that allow upto 275 wide tires, AWD and depending on the model has 250HP.
Over the years a lot of info has been learned a lot about the EVO. The stock rear diff mod allows on throttle rotation, which is free and legal. The old A-Stock thread points to not having on throttle rotation being the EVO's Achilles's heel, which can now be legally fixed. My EVO 8 MR will be demodded from STU and will be used to compete in the local Rocky Mountain region auto-xes next year. I'm almost there, all the aftermarket bits are off, just waiting to install a few stock parts.
This winter auto-x I've been co-driving a buddy's stock EVO X. And we're not doing too bad for a stock EVO X. Both of us PAX'ed top 10. Luckily we have multiple National champs and Trophy winners in our region and our local courses are pretty fast. So it will be a good way to see how I index in the car next year.
Given the age of the car, I wonder if there are any stock/street EVO racers left. I hope to get a discussion going to see how the rest of you are doing in your local regions.
Older threads:
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/mo...roll-call.html
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/mo...ock-class.html
Nov 13, 2014, 07:10 PM
#2
Evolved Member
Glad to hear there will be some non-X EVOs in BS as well. Wondering how did you come up with the HP numbers for the EVO, since I don't believe mine can get that high with BS mods. Also, C5s can get below 3100 with bigger wheels as well. You can get much more info on Lane's car from this link.
Good luck!
Fedja
Good luck!
Fedja
Nov 13, 2014, 09:05 PM
#3
The EVO8s have always made about 276-278hp and 286 ft-lbs at the crank from the factory. It weighs about 3268lbs from the factory. With a lighter catback, delete spare tire etc from the trunk and lighter wheels it should also be able to get down to 3100+lbs, I would think. But it only has 8" wide rims from the factory which limits tire widths.
Nov 14, 2014, 06:37 AM
#4
Evolved Member
I see now - you were talking about crank numbers for HP/torque. C5s seem to be getting 331 HP and 341 ft-lbs at the wheels. I am hoping to pick about 15 wheel HP with straight pipe (no muffler) and that should be around 250s for HP at the wheels with similar hopes that AWD will help with this deficit over the RWD cars.
Will you stay with 17" rims or perhaps move to 18s? What about the tire sizes you were considering?
Will you stay with 17" rims or perhaps move to 18s? What about the tire sizes you were considering?
Nov 14, 2014, 07:26 AM
#5
I see now - you were talking about crank numbers for HP/torque. C5s seem to be getting 331 HP and 341 ft-lbs at the wheels. I am hoping to pick about 15 wheel HP with straight pipe (no muffler) and that should be around 250s for HP at the wheels with similar hopes that AWD will help with this deficit over the RWD cars.
Will you stay with 17" rims or perhaps move to 18s? What about the tire sizes you were considering?
Will you stay with 17" rims or perhaps move to 18s? What about the tire sizes you were considering?
Nov 14, 2014, 08:14 AM
#6
Up here in WA the Street Touring Ultra class is dominated by Evo VIII/IX's http://www.scca.com/solo/content.cfm?cid=51062
As for competing in B-street, I think evos will have a hard time competing with porsches, S2000, vettes, etc.. Some modern "street" tires are not that far removed from R comp tires. Plus Evos still have a tendency to understear even with the rear diff restack.
I would love to be proved wrong though.
I am interested to see how the new miata fits in once its released. All signs point to win.
As for competing in B-street, I think evos will have a hard time competing with porsches, S2000, vettes, etc.. Some modern "street" tires are not that far removed from R comp tires. Plus Evos still have a tendency to understear even with the rear diff restack.
I would love to be proved wrong though.
I am interested to see how the new miata fits in once its released. All signs point to win.
Last edited by nemsin; Nov 14, 2014 at 08:21 AM.
Nov 14, 2014, 09:46 AM
#7
For now planning on sticking to 17x8 with 255 wide tires because that is the max offered in the 17" size. 1 step over the recommended max tire size for the rim. I believe the max tire size guys from the old AS thread were able to run was 275 wide with a bit of rubbing. So it seems 265 is the max (depending on the tire). Going to 265 would mean having to go to 18" rims which is an option, but I'm not sure if there would be any gains with street tires. Unless someone else has tested the combo and seen gains. And 255 is wider than what the STU guys run.
I agree, the old EVO8/9 have pretty bad F/R weight distribution 60/40. Which makes the load on the front tires pretty bad. Out of the box the EVOs have handled better than the STis of the past. The car ultimately understeers at the limit during steady state cornering. But all threads I keep reading mention that with the addition of only a larger front sway bar the car oversteers due to better contact patch on the outside front. If that doesn't help, neutral steady state cornering can be achieved with a stock front, larger rear sway bar and tire pressures. Luckily I have both from my STU days. Right now I've returned the rear to stock and have the larger aftermarket front on the car.
The rear diff mod will help the car rotate on throttle, which helps the corner exit portion and the turn in can be managed with toe out in the front. So in a way, all parts of cornering on the car can be improved over the old AS days. But who knows if that will be enough. I'll definitely give it a shot.
As far as the grip between R-comps and the newer gen street tires is concerned, the difference is still night and day. The lateral grip is getting close but the longitudinal grip while the lateral grip is being stretched is still nowhere near what you can do with R-comps from my recent experience.
I agree, the old EVO8/9 have pretty bad F/R weight distribution 60/40. Which makes the load on the front tires pretty bad. Out of the box the EVOs have handled better than the STis of the past. The car ultimately understeers at the limit during steady state cornering. But all threads I keep reading mention that with the addition of only a larger front sway bar the car oversteers due to better contact patch on the outside front. If that doesn't help, neutral steady state cornering can be achieved with a stock front, larger rear sway bar and tire pressures. Luckily I have both from my STU days. Right now I've returned the rear to stock and have the larger aftermarket front on the car.
The rear diff mod will help the car rotate on throttle, which helps the corner exit portion and the turn in can be managed with toe out in the front. So in a way, all parts of cornering on the car can be improved over the old AS days. But who knows if that will be enough. I'll definitely give it a shot.
As far as the grip between R-comps and the newer gen street tires is concerned, the difference is still night and day. The lateral grip is getting close but the longitudinal grip while the lateral grip is being stretched is still nowhere near what you can do with R-comps from my recent experience.
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Nov 14, 2014, 10:59 AM
#8
Evolved Member
Not to be negative, but I would think that an Evo on mostly stock suspension and stock wheels would struggle against a C5 due to the worse balance, much worse bottom end torque (and top end HP if the course is big), and better braking that the C5 would achieve through better F/R weight distribution and wider wheels/tires. Seems like a re-class would be appropriate, but I guess time will tell. Fedja, you've fought a good fight for 20 years or so flying the Mitsu AWD flag around the cones, but it's time to admit defeat and get that RWD V8 American car you've always really wanted
As of how much Mits and AWD still has left in there is still up in the air. If I manage to get decent shocks for my car, fight will go on. Without them, it is pretty pointless to expect anything other than bottom thopy positions. At least for B-Street.
Nov 14, 2014, 11:08 AM
#9
Evolved Member
For now planning on sticking to 17x8 with 255 wide tires because that is the max offered in the 17" size. 1 step over the recommended max tire size for the rim. I believe the max tire size guys from the old AS thread were able to run was 275 wide with a bit of rubbing. So it seems 265 is the max (depending on the tire). Going to 265 would mean having to go to 18" rims which is an option, but I'm not sure if there would be any gains with street tires. Unless someone else has tested the combo and seen gains. And 255 is wider than what the STU guys run.
I agree, the old EVO8/9 have pretty bad F/R weight distribution 60/40. Which makes the load on the front tires pretty bad. Out of the box the EVOs have handled better than the STis of the past. The car ultimately understeers at the limit during steady state cornering. But all threads I keep reading mention that with the addition of only a larger front sway bar the car oversteers due to better contact patch on the outside front. If that doesn't help, neutral steady state cornering can be achieved with a stock front, larger rear sway bar and tire pressures. Luckily I have both from my STU days. Right now I've returned the rear to stock and have the larger aftermarket front on the car.
The rear diff mod will help the car rotate on throttle, which helps the corner exit portion and the turn in can be managed with toe out in the front. So in a way, all parts of cornering on the car can be improved over the old AS days. But who knows if that will be enough. I'll definitely give it a shot.
As far as the grip between R-comps and the newer gen street tires is concerned, the difference is still night and day. The lateral grip is getting close but the longitudinal grip while the lateral grip is being stretched is still nowhere near what you can do with R-comps from my recent experience.
I agree, the old EVO8/9 have pretty bad F/R weight distribution 60/40. Which makes the load on the front tires pretty bad. Out of the box the EVOs have handled better than the STis of the past. The car ultimately understeers at the limit during steady state cornering. But all threads I keep reading mention that with the addition of only a larger front sway bar the car oversteers due to better contact patch on the outside front. If that doesn't help, neutral steady state cornering can be achieved with a stock front, larger rear sway bar and tire pressures. Luckily I have both from my STU days. Right now I've returned the rear to stock and have the larger aftermarket front on the car.
The rear diff mod will help the car rotate on throttle, which helps the corner exit portion and the turn in can be managed with toe out in the front. So in a way, all parts of cornering on the car can be improved over the old AS days. But who knows if that will be enough. I'll definitely give it a shot.
As far as the grip between R-comps and the newer gen street tires is concerned, the difference is still night and day. The lateral grip is getting close but the longitudinal grip while the lateral grip is being stretched is still nowhere near what you can do with R-comps from my recent experience.
Not sure why would you go back to the stock shocks if you were in STU and probably have something better. You could get stock type sleeves to place on your shocks and use stock springs on them and that would probably be better option compare to OEM setup.
275s look pretty good on 8.5" rims, so I would make sure to use 265s if I could. I might be even tempted to try 285s on my car since I know they fit (ran Hoosiers earlier without any issues), but only 285/30 is made by Dunlop. RS3s only came as 285/35 so that might be a bit too high.
Speaking of the wheel height, you also have to make sure that gearing will be right to get you over 60 mph (hopefully 65), so you don't have to suffer through the STI syndrome.
Nov 14, 2014, 11:17 AM
#10
I didn't give up anything! I still have the Evo and will be bringing it back out next season, though mostly for the track rather than the cones. I even just bought a trailer for it. Wish we still lived in the same area. Let me know if you come down here for a Tour or Pro and you can meet the family.
Nov 14, 2014, 01:32 PM
#11
Evolved Member
I didn't give up anything! I still have the Evo and will be bringing it back out next season, though mostly for the track rather than the cones. I even just bought a trailer for it. Wish we still lived in the same area. Let me know if you come down here for a Tour or Pro and you can meet the family.
Nov 14, 2014, 05:25 PM
#12
What's interesting is that 235/45/17 is the original tire size on the original 8" wide rim. 255/40/17 and 265/35/18 are very very close to the original diameter, which means the speedo won't be off, however there won't be any gearing advantage or top speed advantage. However making the move to the 18 inch rims increases the price of the tires and the rims exponentially.
MrAWD, the EVO X comes with 8.5" wide rims from the factory, what has been your experience running wider tires stuffed into such a rim? What widths have you tired (255, 265, 275)? Was any difference in pace? turn in effects? Braking/accel effects? Did over all grip during steady state cornering improve?
In my experience with an STS Miata, testing 195 Toyos vs 225 Hankook R-S3 V1 on a 7.5 wide rim back to back, showed the Toyos were about 0.5sec faster on a 40 sec course between 2 drivers. Obviously the compounds are vastly different and that did play a part but wider didn't necessarily mean faster. But the Miata is the exact opposite of the EVO, and gearing probably helped that car ....
As far as the suspension is concerned I used to run Ohlins DFVs in STU but sold the suspension to a friend when I decided to run STS. The Ohlins were amazing but the shock body would be too short for stock purposes. The EVO 8 MR comes with Bilstiens from the factory but the valving is very soft. It feels very floaty and disconnected at times. So the idea is to go with some Bilstien HDs. I sat in a friends EVO8 with Bilstien HDs and the valving is a lot firmer. The logic being, Bilstiens can be revalved pretty easily by multiple vendors, I just wish there was a 1 or 2 way adjustable solution.
MrAWD, the EVO X comes with 8.5" wide rims from the factory, what has been your experience running wider tires stuffed into such a rim? What widths have you tired (255, 265, 275)? Was any difference in pace? turn in effects? Braking/accel effects? Did over all grip during steady state cornering improve?
In my experience with an STS Miata, testing 195 Toyos vs 225 Hankook R-S3 V1 on a 7.5 wide rim back to back, showed the Toyos were about 0.5sec faster on a 40 sec course between 2 drivers. Obviously the compounds are vastly different and that did play a part but wider didn't necessarily mean faster. But the Miata is the exact opposite of the EVO, and gearing probably helped that car ....
As far as the suspension is concerned I used to run Ohlins DFVs in STU but sold the suspension to a friend when I decided to run STS. The Ohlins were amazing but the shock body would be too short for stock purposes. The EVO 8 MR comes with Bilstiens from the factory but the valving is very soft. It feels very floaty and disconnected at times. So the idea is to go with some Bilstien HDs. I sat in a friends EVO8 with Bilstien HDs and the valving is a lot firmer. The logic being, Bilstiens can be revalved pretty easily by multiple vendors, I just wish there was a 1 or 2 way adjustable solution.
Last edited by DaWorstPlaya; Nov 14, 2014 at 06:01 PM.
Nov 14, 2014, 06:26 PM
#13
Evolved Member
I don't care for speedo at all for this implementation and only thing that matters is how fast car will go with given tire OID. Looks like 255s are a bit shorter than stock, while all others are pretty much the same. I have automatic trainy in mine, so I would like to run shortest one possible to get more torque out of it without any concern for top seed in 2nd. 8s & 9s have to worry about this a bit more. To be honest here, I really don't know where the stock top speed is for 8s and 9s, so I don't even know if this is an issue at all - just something to keep in mind with manual transmissions.
In your example above one of the tires was 195 Toyo, which is know to have special compound under the top layer, which made it much closer to the real race tires. Any comparison against that one is not fair!
But, if we want to compare different widths, here is my take on it. If a car can heat up quickly enough given tire size (half of the first run perhaps), than it is a good size. If tire would not come up to the good temperature within half to third of the first run, than it is too big. If tire gets to be too hot at the end of the run that performance drops visibly, it is too small.
With that said, lighter cars have harder time to bring enough heat to sizes like 225s and if that is the case, smaller one would work better. On a heavy car that will overheat pretty much anything, you have to use as big one as you can fit in there.
Of course, there are other things that are important as well, but that would be starting point for me. People already complained that the bigger tire on the smaller rim gets to move too much and makes things squishy a bit. If that is something that downgrades performance more than higher grip would benefit the given car, you have to go smaller. That was pretty much why I didn't follow that common logic of keeping rim and tire of similar width and went as big as I could.
Of course, price is an issue here and I had no chance to compare my tires with any other sizes, but so far after the whole season on them, I have no regrets size wise. If there were V2s instead of V1s, it would be even better. If RS3s came in 285/30 size, I would make sure to test them as well, but they don't at this time. ZIISS exist in that size, but there is no contingency from Dunlop, and I don't like that part.
In your example above one of the tires was 195 Toyo, which is know to have special compound under the top layer, which made it much closer to the real race tires. Any comparison against that one is not fair!
But, if we want to compare different widths, here is my take on it. If a car can heat up quickly enough given tire size (half of the first run perhaps), than it is a good size. If tire would not come up to the good temperature within half to third of the first run, than it is too big. If tire gets to be too hot at the end of the run that performance drops visibly, it is too small.
With that said, lighter cars have harder time to bring enough heat to sizes like 225s and if that is the case, smaller one would work better. On a heavy car that will overheat pretty much anything, you have to use as big one as you can fit in there.
Of course, there are other things that are important as well, but that would be starting point for me. People already complained that the bigger tire on the smaller rim gets to move too much and makes things squishy a bit. If that is something that downgrades performance more than higher grip would benefit the given car, you have to go smaller. That was pretty much why I didn't follow that common logic of keeping rim and tire of similar width and went as big as I could.
Of course, price is an issue here and I had no chance to compare my tires with any other sizes, but so far after the whole season on them, I have no regrets size wise. If there were V2s instead of V1s, it would be even better. If RS3s came in 285/30 size, I would make sure to test them as well, but they don't at this time. ZIISS exist in that size, but there is no contingency from Dunlop, and I don't like that part.
Last edited by MrAWD; Nov 14, 2014 at 06:35 PM.
Nov 14, 2014, 07:45 PM
#14
I think it could be a good car on asphalt and at Pros.
I'm not sure I'd take one over a TT though.
Pretty sure that this is incorrect. A lot of tires have an outer layer that wears more quickly / has the good rubber, and an inner layer that's harder and wears slower. The 195, 235, and maybe other sizes of the Toyo have the good/outer rubber all the way through. So it is not some sort of "special" compound on the insides.
And not everyone agrees with this.
I'm not sure I'd take one over a TT though.
And not everyone agrees with this.
Last edited by Butt Dyno; Nov 14, 2014 at 07:49 PM.
Nov 15, 2014, 03:29 PM
#15
Evolved Member
I had a chance to run with Feinberg this past summer at Devens and we were only 4 tents apart when I was having lots of fuel cut issues due to bad fuel relay. Since, he was one of the best with that car, better prepared EVO would have no issue against them.
C'mon man...you had to heard this one about this particular size that most of the ST guys were running and it almost got on the exclusion list for that size only. There was something different about that particular size and that is what I remember about it.
Well, nobody had done any testing in this regards to confirm things either way. So, the only thing I have right now is that car feels just fine with those tires and I am yet to experience any issues with it. If this is really bad combination for tire width and I am loosing half a second on 60 sec course, that would mean that I could have been faster whole this season than decently prepared S2k with pretty good driver on my OEM worn dumpers. If that would be true, EVO X would be a car to have in BS, and we all know that is really not the case.
Pretty sure that this is incorrect. A lot of tires have an outer layer that wears more quickly / has the good rubber, and an inner layer that's harder and wears slower. The 195, 235, and maybe other sizes of the Toyo have the good/outer rubber all the way through. So it is not some sort of "special" compound on the insides.
Well, nobody had done any testing in this regards to confirm things either way. So, the only thing I have right now is that car feels just fine with those tires and I am yet to experience any issues with it. If this is really bad combination for tire width and I am loosing half a second on 60 sec course, that would mean that I could have been faster whole this season than decently prepared S2k with pretty good driver on my OEM worn dumpers. If that would be true, EVO X would be a car to have in BS, and we all know that is really not the case.
Last edited by MrAWD; Nov 15, 2014 at 03:33 PM.