Billet control arms, +1 to +3 deg caster, +0 to +1in length.. Is it a boat car?
Dec 9, 2016, 03:03 PM
#31
The short answer is I don't. As it is now I don't adjust camber at the strut top anyways and always pull it out at the strut mount. Less convenient but previously I was trying to max slider axis at the sacrifice of SAI. Now Im thinking caster Trump's both but a little less SAI is also a good thing.
Dec 10, 2016, 07:25 AM
#35
Am I doing something wrong here adjusting at the plates, lol! How are you adjusting at the bottom anyway; are you using a different eccentric bolt as opposed to the OEM one? I've always just used the OEM eccentric arrow facing outward and dialed in more up top. The OEM bolt is flat on 2 sides so I dont really see it working well in any other position than inward or outward unless you were to grind down the other sides. But then it seems like it would be prone to slipping.
I know some of the higher end setups like JRZ's are slotted at the bottom so perhaps that is how you're doing it? Im on Ohlins DFV's which Dallas IIRC you have as well? My plates are just about maxxed at the top there is probably another .5" of movement possible and I run -3.5 degrees. I suspect if I had any less camber dialed in below and I tried to max it out at the top I'd either not be able to achieve -3.5 anymore or I'd be able to however the spring and/or top perch would hit the inner fender well.
So once again you guys must have different eccentrics or perhaps I have no idea what Im talking about and I should go away.
Regardless more caster would be amazing and this has been documented way back in the day if you search on here. But we all know that now hence why we're sitting with a couple extra degrees dialed in. I felt a dramatic increase in front end bite if that makes sense. I cant say i noticed any real delay in turn in but what I did absolutely feel is that when I turned in the front end wanted to stick vs washing out like prior. I also enjoyed a better turning radius; something we all know the evo suffers from.
The question remains however as to when we will hit the point of marginal returns. But to your point having to run lots of static camber kinda sucks. Of course hellaflushyo! But harder to put power down in the straights and it impedes braking.
I know some of the higher end setups like JRZ's are slotted at the bottom so perhaps that is how you're doing it? Im on Ohlins DFV's which Dallas IIRC you have as well? My plates are just about maxxed at the top there is probably another .5" of movement possible and I run -3.5 degrees. I suspect if I had any less camber dialed in below and I tried to max it out at the top I'd either not be able to achieve -3.5 anymore or I'd be able to however the spring and/or top perch would hit the inner fender well.
So once again you guys must have different eccentrics or perhaps I have no idea what Im talking about and I should go away.
Regardless more caster would be amazing and this has been documented way back in the day if you search on here. But we all know that now hence why we're sitting with a couple extra degrees dialed in. I felt a dramatic increase in front end bite if that makes sense. I cant say i noticed any real delay in turn in but what I did absolutely feel is that when I turned in the front end wanted to stick vs washing out like prior. I also enjoyed a better turning radius; something we all know the evo suffers from.
The question remains however as to when we will hit the point of marginal returns. But to your point having to run lots of static camber kinda sucks. Of course hellaflushyo! But harder to put power down in the straights and it impedes braking.
Dec 10, 2016, 10:42 AM
#36
There's actually quite a bit of slop on the strut bolts, I think I posted sometime before that my old ASTs have over a degree of adjustment with the factory eccentric in the same position. So to set my camber I snug the strut bolts with a jack on the rotor to bias slop towards max negative camber then with a screwdriver push it back as much as I need. It's not as convenient as strut top adjustment but it's the price you pay when trying to maximise variable.
And I hear ya on braking/accel performance. This year I really started struggling with inside tire wear in part due to street mod levels of power.
And I hear ya on braking/accel performance. This year I really started struggling with inside tire wear in part due to street mod levels of power.
Dec 11, 2016, 02:07 PM
#37
A little work on these this weekend, transverse bar is single length now and whole thing will end up being around 1-1.5lbs lighter than the stock 7.xx lb stock arm I think... I also tilted the ball joint to 6deg since most spherical's want +/- 8-10deg. Don't want to be sitting static at max angle.
Dec 11, 2016, 09:27 PM
#38
Alright gents, a little more investigation on how much you could get out of the camber/caster plate tonight. If I take out 1deg of camber from the plate Ive posted before then I can get over 30mm of offset. This is a huge amount, compared to stock is an additional >2.5deg depending on rake and ride height. On my car its 2.75deg gain.
So, huge offsets are possible on the camber plate if we go fixed and adjust camber via strut bolt which is really not that bad of a way to go. A little more work, but this is what you gotta do when you want to push things.
So how much do you need to change the control arm for all things to stay the same? Well, its around an extra 1deg of caster. Stack that up, 3.5 (stock) + 2.75 (top hats, me) + 1 (control arm, stock pos) = 7.25. And from my experience, we need to push the wheel forward for rear fender well clearance. So the road to 8+ deg of caster is certainly possible for those who want to push for it.
Next step, 3D print some parts!
So, huge offsets are possible on the camber plate if we go fixed and adjust camber via strut bolt which is really not that bad of a way to go. A little more work, but this is what you gotta do when you want to push things.
So how much do you need to change the control arm for all things to stay the same? Well, its around an extra 1deg of caster. Stack that up, 3.5 (stock) + 2.75 (top hats, me) + 1 (control arm, stock pos) = 7.25. And from my experience, we need to push the wheel forward for rear fender well clearance. So the road to 8+ deg of caster is certainly possible for those who want to push for it.
Next step, 3D print some parts!
Dec 12, 2016, 09:15 AM
#40
EvoM Guru
iTrader: (1)
That looks like a 12mm bolt. It'll be plenty strong mounted in double shear like it is.
Dec 12, 2016, 10:11 AM
#41
Ive made that a 12mm shoulder bolt that's of course double shear. The shoulder bolt has an M10 threads so should also get good clamping. I will definitely need to be a tight fit on both the arm and bar end (not sure what I'm calling that..) but they are both machined so a reamed hole shouldn't be an issue.
And to add to that, the launching is less of a concern than braking because of weight transfer. Well hop could add a significant amount of extra load but its pretty stout at 12mm.
And to add to that, the launching is less of a concern than braking because of weight transfer. Well hop could add a significant amount of extra load but its pretty stout at 12mm.
Last edited by Dallas J; Dec 12, 2016 at 10:31 AM.
Dec 14, 2016, 01:03 PM
#42
There's actually quite a bit of slop on the strut bolts, I think I posted sometime before that my old ASTs have over a degree of adjustment with the factory eccentric in the same position. So to set my camber I snug the strut bolts with a jack on the rotor to bias slop towards max negative camber then with a screwdriver push it back as much as I need. It's not as convenient as strut top adjustment but it's the price you pay when trying to maximise variable.
And I hear ya on braking/accel performance. This year I really started struggling with inside tire wear in part due to street mod levels of power.
And I hear ya on braking/accel performance. This year I really started struggling with inside tire wear in part due to street mod levels of power.
Side note Im crying inside a little bit seeing how shiny they used to be. Serves me right for not pulling them off last winter ugh
Dec 14, 2016, 01:08 PM
#43
EvoM Guru
iTrader: (1)
In theory, they should yield the same amount of adjustment as stock, which IIRC there is a 1* difference between the two settings on OEM struts.
Dec 14, 2016, 01:17 PM
#44
Correct, but also to Dallas's point if there is additional play by prying outward while tightening I can see some additional camber being plausible. But not exactly a significant amount. If that top hole was slotted more then sure you could gain more but I don't have it in me to take the die grinder to my Ohlins mount.
So Dallas- being that we have the same coils can you also get an additional degree with yours? Purely speculation and I love that you're pushing the envelope and don't mean to be a pessimist; I'm just skeptical that you can gain enough camber below to allow you to pull it out up top when then enables you to achieve more caster. If you can that is amazing and I may follow suit and hack up my front lip. I'd love more caster. However where Im at right now my wheels fit really good in the front. If we move the wheel forward I'll get greedy and wanna move it back more down below to recenter it again. And that's where it starts to get over my head so keep doing what you're doing and report back
So Dallas- being that we have the same coils can you also get an additional degree with yours? Purely speculation and I love that you're pushing the envelope and don't mean to be a pessimist; I'm just skeptical that you can gain enough camber below to allow you to pull it out up top when then enables you to achieve more caster. If you can that is amazing and I may follow suit and hack up my front lip. I'd love more caster. However where Im at right now my wheels fit really good in the front. If we move the wheel forward I'll get greedy and wanna move it back more down below to recenter it again. And that's where it starts to get over my head so keep doing what you're doing and report back