LetsGetThisDone

iTrader: (1)

That's just it, Manley has never attempted to rectify the cracking forged cranks, they'll tell you there isn't a problem.


Plenty of other manufacturers that don't have cranks that fail like that, and sell the other needed parts well, I'll go with them. Eagle, Wiseco (also K1), CP/Carillo, JE, etc.

Ayoustin

iTrader: (2)

I've already mentioned this in another thread but I've talked with Manley, they acknowledged the problem does exist, and have already begun testing a new design. The issue is from how the oiling hole is drilled for the number 4 rod journal.

Driv200

iTrader: (1)

Happy New Year everyone.

Well, here's the update:

Have you ever got internal reward points for your company? My employer offers ACE points. You get to apply these points to a catalog full of golf clubs or coffee makers etc... I was glad when I learned I could turn them into Amazon Gift Cards. So, this was good, but somewhat limiting. I was able to find the Manley 94mm Billet Crank but not the K1. So, I ordered the Manley. This was like a bonus! Not having to use my budgeted funds, I used more points to get a Hero 5 Black GoPro and accessories.

The rest is all cash: Pistons, Aluminum Rods, valves, seals, gaskets, water pump, timing belt, etc..etc... Wiseco is 6wks out minimum. So got the Manley Platinum Lightweight long rod pistons 86.5mm with side coating.

I'm new to all this engine build stuff, so I can't wait to see the difference in my forged crank vs billet crank......forged rods vs aluminum rods. I think it will be cool. Might post a few picks. Might keep my perfectly good forged crank and Manley I-beam rods and rebuild my old 87.5 bore block over time. Or sell....not sure.

Pics of new block, cleaned stage V (IX) head.

Ayoustin

iTrader: (2)

I didn't see you're using aluminum rods. It's very uncommon for Al rods to be used on a road course car, that's more of a drag car thing. Al doesn't have an endurance limit so the rods will get weaker and weaker as they get cycled. Be sure to check them after every season.

LetsGetThisDone

iTrader: (1)

Also be sure to set appropriate clearances for the aluminum rods. Your bearing and side clearance will be different from a steel rod, as well as how far in the hole you run the piston. And aluminum rods get pissed when oil gets above a not too extremely hot temp, like 225 or 235 IIRC. So make sure your oil cooling setup is up to the task.

RazorLab

iTrader: (8)

I ‘d personally save myself potential headaches and not put aluminum rods in a road course build, but that’s me.

heel2toe

iTrader: (41)

OP- Why are you going with AL rods anyway? You are building this thing from the ground up so I don't follow the logic here.

Driv200

iTrader: (1)

Let me explain. I am in idiot when it comes to mechanics. That about sums it up. Like any EVO race shop, they are all drag racers and these details are not readily accepted. I have been driving for 20+ years and finally the budget has forced me to learn this stuff myself.

I will go back and research this point about Al rods. As we all know, at a certain point, small gains cost a fortune. I thought Aluminum rods were a perfect match for my billet crank. I added up near 4-5lbs of weight savings at such a critical point. My events are 20 minutes run time...NASA, Auto-X, HPDE's, etc... Haven't been able to run more than 10min the past year b/c of so much blow bye filling up my catch cans and filling up my IC.

I will go back and check this. Initial review shows the new R&R Aluminum rods very durable in comparison....and softer...which adds other benefits. Thanks for this important catch if proves true. I have no problem reusing my I-beams again and putting the $750 towards the dry sump. (old rods are perfect).

This is exactly why I love this forum. I know we all have opinions and I don't mind taking it all in and studying more to learn whats best for me. Thank you for following this thread and sharing your knowledge with me.

An excerpt from R&R Web site about Aluminum. Says 10-15k miles. That's 3 times what I got out of this motor....but doesn't specify road racing. Maybe that was my miss?

Now that the flexibility of the true billet process utilizing extrusions is explained, you can see why we prefer the process, which allows us to make almost any connecting rod. When it comes to what is typically considered a standard connecting rod, like a domestic small block Chevrolet or import Mitsubishi connecting rod, where some companies make them and stock them in standard configurations, which allows for same day shipping in the best case scenario, you get a generic rod, designed to do everything ok, but excel at not one thing. Each application has a different set of requirements, whether they are for added strength, weight, or even as simple as clearancing for fitment purposes. When you order an R&R Pro billet aluminum or R&R Pro billet steel connecting rod, before it’s even started, there’s a list of details that are poured over to ensure that the rod that is machined fits your needs precisely- that’s why we give you a choice of alloys, bolts, and machining options to suit your application and it’s exact requirements. Whether you order four, six, eight or two hundred connecting rods, each piece gets meticulously examined and strict quality control ensures that the first rod is the same as the last. So why are aluminum connecting rods the preferred choice for those running high RPMs, lots of boost, or making huge horsepower? Well, the answer is quite simple. Think of the connecting rod as a spring or shock absorber. It cushions the inherently rough nature of combustion and acts like a buffer between your more expensive pistons and crankshaft. In these applications, a steel rod is too rigid and is more like a sledge-hammer than shock absorber, often leading to damage to the crank and the rest of your engine due to failure of the rod itself or a part connected to it. Some manufacturers claim their rods are street-able and can outlive a steel rod. We’d be lying if we made the same claim. An aluminum connecting rod is a spring and there is only an X number of times a spring will compress and return to it’s rest state without deformation. Deformation in our case is a rod failure, as with any connecting rod. Aluminum has a fixed fatigue life, just like that of a titanium connecting rod. Well, what’s that you might ask? Every material can be deformed to a certain extent and only a certain number of times before it breaks. Think of a crushed soda can. You can bend it forwards and backwards in the middle a few times before it will split open or tear in half. It’s the same thing with a connecting rod. Depending on the material and the application, a steel connecting rod might last almost forever or an aluminum connecting rod may last just a handful of passes (if you are really making LOTS of horsepower with boost and nitrous at high rpms with a very heavy piston). It’s hard to say with an aluminum rod what is the useable life. Controlled deformation and its performance as a spring and shock absorber is the reason people seek an aluminum connecting rod. If its weight reduction that is needed with the strength and longevity of steel, say longevity of an OEM part, it’s a titanium connecting rod you need. But the price you pay is its extreme cost. The old axiom pick two holds true: price, strength, reliability- you can’t have all three.

Some racers change their aluminum connecting rods religiously every few runs or every season, since typically the cost of a set of rods is less than the cost of the rest of the parts in a race engine. Import racers whose cars double both as daily drivers and weekend warriors typically use their rods for 10 to 15 thousand miles and again, change them just as a precautionary measure depending on how hard they run their engines. We’ve even seen customers put hundreds upon hundreds of passes on their aluminum connecting rods without failures. Like we already said, we can’t guarantee how long an aluminum connecting rod will last but we do take the time and make the effort to build the best connecting rod possible, and do it affordably.

kaj

iTrader: (60)

Am I the only one that things rebuilding an engine every 10-15k miles is excessive? Holy crap.
I'm shooting for another 100k miles on my short block (though I admit I'll never see more than 450whp).

OP: that excerpt does say, "We’ve even seen customers put hundreds upon hundreds of passes on their aluminum connecting rods without failures" so it sounds like they are focusing on drag racing.

Ayoustin

iTrader: (2)

10-15k for a track car isn't bad. I wouldn't run aluminum rods on a road course car for 10-15k without pulling them every few thousand miles to make sure they haven't stretched.

Honestly though, I'd rather play it safe and use steel rods that are known to be strong.

kaj

iTrader: (60)

I honestly think I'd have to make some changes if I were doing rebuilds that often. Or quit racing. That's way too much work.
no thanks on the aluminum.

RazorLab

iTrader: (8)

Get the out of here with 10-15k between rebuilds. That is not reality.

Shop car that ONLY gets driven at track, sure, that’s like six years of track use, but most of us? Get outta here.

A three mile track, 5 laps each for 5 sessions. If you did that literally every day for a year would be 27,xxx miles.

Let’s be slightly more realistic and say you did it every single saturday for a year, that would be almost 4,000 miles.

I doubt it’s even possible to track 52 times a year

kikiturbo

+1 on steel rods... only track engine I know of that uses alu rods is that new billet 4 cyl porsche based time attack engine that is made in finland.. and they change rods something like every 250 km...

good customer racing engines used in rally have 1000 or 2000 km rebuilds...

LetsGetThisDone

iTrader: (1)

Aluminum rods are for racecars that get routine tear downs. Most true racing engines go a max of 2500-3k miles before tear downs. EVERYTHING gets inspected and measured, parts out of spec are replaced, AND most race engine builders have a replacement schedule/interval for every part, regardless of whether or not they're in spec or are a wear item (because, really, in racing anything made of metal is a wear/fatique item lol)

Dallas J

iTrader: (1)

Was totally thinking same thing. 10-15k? Sooo like forever on an AutoX car?

Im lucky to put 1000mi on the car each year between autox and street testing.