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-   -   Stepping my IX up for 91/E85, looking for final preparation suggestions (https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/evo-dyno-tuning-results/740846-stepping-my-ix-up-91-e85-looking-final-preparation-suggestions.html)

2006EvoIXer Jan 27, 2018 09:47 AM

I forced a 3" ID coupler on it. It took a LOT of work to force it on but it is super tight. I also bought a 3.25" ID couple to use but after looking at the stretched 3", I decided to keep since it looks nice. SD is great if you're done modding. Then you can fine tune yourself as you drive. You don't want to start over fine tuning with every new mod. You'll go nuts.:lol:


Originally Posted by MinusPrevious (Post 11800474)
Curious how you connected to the FP 84mm inlet. What adapter did you use? I may have to get the same one

May take your advice & just stick w/the MAF vs SD


2006EvoIXer Jan 27, 2018 09:50 AM

Here's an inside picture.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.evo...1ca2061454.jpg



Originally Posted by MinusPrevious (Post 11800474)

Curious how you connected to the FP 84mm inlet. What adapter did you use? I may have to get the same one


Turbo porn! LOL!!

iD33 Jan 27, 2018 10:21 AM

I should really ask Sam but if or when you guys move on to larger injectors what brand or cc would be preferred? My RC 1200s are maxed. Look at that turbo... so red : :guitar:

2006EvoIXer Jan 27, 2018 10:28 AM

Sam is the man. LOL
I think he likes FIC but they are more expensive. My wild guess is he'll say FIC 1600cc. Personally, I will keep my stock 43.5 fuel pressure to keep AEM fuel pump happy. Red can make serious power, but are you ready to boost 35-40psi?

Edit: I thought you were referring to FP Red. Now I see you were referring to color red from the inside of my coupler. Sorry about that!


Originally Posted by iD33 (Post 11800490)
I should really ask Sam but if or when you guys move on to larger injectors what brand or cc would be preferred? My RC 1200s are maxed. Look at that turbo... so red : :guitar:


2006EvoIXer Jan 27, 2018 11:49 AM

Keep us posted on your results!


Originally Posted by MinusPrevious (Post 11800454)
Great thread, as my EvO is over there right now for work (HTA71, S2's & a 60K service)

Looking fwd to matching your no.s as well!

What intake are you running? Was hoping Sam would recommend speed density but havent discussed w/him yet

Thanks, :beer:


2006EvoIXer Jan 27, 2018 01:32 PM

If you are looking to upsize your RC1000 injectors, check these out:

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.evo...f69657e684.png



Originally Posted by MinusPrevious (Post 11800474)
Mine is a white EvO9 RS (should be there LOL). Hey, ive only got RC1000's so we will have to see

Curious how you connected to the FP 84mm inlet. What adapter did you use? I may have to get the same one

May take your advice & just stick w/the MAF vs SD


In hind sight, these are probably what I would get.

2006EvoIXer Jan 27, 2018 01:51 PM

Just for fun
 
Here's a dyno graph for a 2015 Lamborghini Huracan LP-610-4.
To convert to hp, multiple KW by 1.34, he's at 462 hp.
To convert NM to ft-lbs, multiply NM by 0.7376. He's at less than 375 ft-lbs. Hmmm...


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.evo...e14749e0c4.png

Better graph:

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.evo...161910ec3c.png

2006EvoIXer Jan 30, 2018 11:23 PM

Next step
 
Update: From reading other's posts, the IDC reads 20% high. Not surehow or why. Isn't it calculated based on pulse width of injectors and RPM? All I can think of is the opening time for injectors to fully release the fuel.

Since my RC1200cc DC is hitting 99%, I am now researching options to rewire the fuel pump for peak load in hopes to reduce peak DC to 95% or under. So far, I'm thinking either post#205
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...ircuit-14.html

Or post#233
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...ircuit-16.html

I think fuel pump relay #3 bypasses the resister at about 4psi boost. Post#233 would kick in the extra power connection at 7psi. It would provide pump power in 3 stages, which would should provide a better pressure increase transition. Post#205 would be low flow under 4psi boost and max flow at over 4 psi boost. Light boost could overwelm the tiny 1/4" return fuel line and bump the pressure arterficially until demand draws it down.

I wanted to run 2 separate lines in parallel to provide redundancy in case 1 fails (if this auxiliary power source fails, fuel pressure drops and engine will run lean). Since the relay #3 trigger may not be sufficient to operate 3 relays, I'm thinking about doing 1 set and running a 2nd line from relay to pump. This way, if auxiliary power fails, the factory power supply with 2 lines to pump would provide enough to power to minimize lean condition.

Thoughts, suggestions, and comments are appreciated. Any fuel gurus in here?
:D :D :D

2006EvoIXer Jan 31, 2018 10:59 PM

Fuel Pump
 
VERY VERY interesting read!!! Maybe my RC1200cc will work after all!!{thumbup}{thumbup}{thumbup}

http://www.lancerregister.com/showthread.php?t=137293

2006EvoIXer Feb 1, 2018 12:00 AM

More thinking...(Revised)
 
Look at AEM's fuel pump chart:

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.evo...add09e4ce4.jpg

At 45 psi (trying to find flow rate at 43.5 psi is too hard, so 45 psi is close enough and gives us a tiny cushion), we get 330 lph. Divide by 60 to get lpm and multiply by 1,000 to get cc/min and then divide by 4 injectors. I get 1375cc, so at idle, I have enough fuel for my RC1200cc (which is 1090cc).

Let's look at my max boost: this turbo spools up so fast that I've spiked to 31 psi for a split second. What does that translate to in fuel pressure? My best guess is: stock 43.5 idle fuel pressure, which is -18mm Hg on stock cams. -18 mmHg is -0.237 psi in boost. Getting to +31 psi is a total of 31.237 psi and assuming 1:1 boost to fuel pressure (from stock FPR, which I don't know if true), fuel pressure spikes to almost 74.8 psi. At 74.8 psi, this pump only flows about 255-260 lph. 255 lph converts to 1062.5cc available to each injector. If my injectors are 1200cc at 55 psi fuel pressure, what is it at 74.8 psi? Fortunately, this happens at about 3500 rpm, so my engine isn't at highest fuel demand. Update: read that 43.5 psi fuel pressure is with vacuum line disconnected from pressure regular at idle. So we simply add boost to find peak fuel pressure. 43.5+31=74.5 psi.

Let's think more about this: this flow chart/graph is based on 13.5 volts. If only 11 volts are getting to the pump through the stock wiring, the pump is only getting 81.5% of the voltage of this chart. Either the current makes up for the low voltage by increasing inversely proportionately (isn't power=volts × current?), which means the 14.25 Amps jump to 17.5 amps, or flow will drop (I think both occurs, but I've been out of school too long to remember). 17 amps can't be good for relays #1 & #2, even if it is only when relay #3 is off (0-4 psi of boost).

One last thing to think about before I power down my brains to rest.:lol::lol::lol:
Eventually, I'd like to boost 30 psi and taper to 28 psi at 8000rpm. I'll need enough flow for 29 psi boost @ peak whp = 72.8 psi fuel pressure. Fuel pump is running at about 260 lph, which is about 1083cc/injector. But due to stock wiring, I'm pushing less fuel and more current (and making more heat through the electrical system). I need to rewire the pump to get the power supply voltage to 13.5-14. And (of course) I'll need to log my accelations before and during the rewiring. I think I need to connect my uego output into my ecu pin for rear O2 and log that in each of my runs. Are there any other things to log other than boost and IDC (if that is an option)?

extreme-eg Feb 1, 2018 02:45 AM


Originally Posted by 2006EvoIXer (Post 11801461)
VERY VERY interesting read!!! Maybe my RC1200cc will work after all!!{thumbup}{thumbup}{thumbup}

http://www.lancerregister.com/showthread.php?t=137293

Just factor in that Buschur's testing was most likely done on Race Gas and not E85 or any sort of Ethanol blend. E85 will use up injector flow 30 - 40% earlier compared to Gasoline (30% less power potential or 30% bigger injector required)

I'm sure you've considered this though on your flow calculations

2006EvoIXer Feb 1, 2018 08:20 AM

Thanks for pointing that out! I was merely looking at flows rates. But fuel differences will affect the stock fuel rail limits, so the 740 whp Buschur states as the power limit drops to 569 whp is we simply divide by 1.3 since E85 needs about 30% more fuel than gasoline. If 40% more, then number drops to 528 whp. I'm still good on stock rail until I upgrade to a turbo bigger than FP Green and boosting 30+ psi. Very interesting!

For my calculations, I should have used numbers specific to my car. I'll double check and fix if I didn't! This is fun!


Originally Posted by extreme-eg (Post 11801469)
Just factor in that Buschur's testing was most likely done on Race Gas and not E85 or any sort of Ethanol blend. E85 will use up injector flow 30 - 40% earlier compared to Gasoline (30% less power potential or 30% bigger injector required)

I'm sure you've considered this though on your flow calculations


2006EvoIXer Feb 2, 2018 05:57 PM

What to do next...
 
Now that I've had plenty of time to think about this and bouncing ideas off of another member, I'll test my changes on each step. I will hook up my UEGO output into my ECU pin for rear O2 so I can log the AFR with my boost, IDC, RPM, etc.
My steps I'm planing to log:

1) baseline as tuned to see where my IDC and AFR is at.
2) add more fuel pump ground. I'll try adding two 16 awg wires to existing ground in parallel and see if AFR richens up and by how much.
3) switch the two 16 awg with a 10 awg to see if there is a difference in AFRs (probably not at this stage).
4) rewire the Fuel Pump Relay #3 by using the power source wire from Relay #2 (which comes from Relay #1) as trigger for new relay (pin 85). Ground pin 86. Run 10 awg from battery + to 20A fuse to pin 30. And then wire from pin 87 with 10 awg to Relay #3 Pin 30. Rest of Relay #3 stays the same for this log.
5) solder two 16 awg in parallel from Relay #3 to fuel pump. This carries the power to fuel pump (low and high voltage). Log to see how much AFR richens up throughout powerband.
6) return the ground back to two 16 awg wires and log again.
7) run and extend the two 16 awg wires to battery main ground and log again to see if AFR enriches further.

Hopefully, I'll have enough power to pump to meet my turbo's capability at 90-95 IDC. I'll hook up a digital volt meter to watch it (unless there's a way to log a wire I'll run from the pump connector).
If anyone has anything else to try, let me know and I'll try to add it.

2006EvoIXer Feb 3, 2018 01:47 PM

Looks like I need to solder my UEGO output to my ECU pin 73:


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.evo...f6abffb42b.png


Looking at my hks turbo timer, the ignition voltage is 14.0V when A/C is on amd 14.2V when running W/O AC. It would dip to 13.8V when it feels like a miss.

2006EvoIXer Feb 3, 2018 07:53 PM

This is my thinking and if I'm doing this wrong, please let me know. Does anyone know the wire sizes connecting IGN to Relay#1 to Relay#2 to Relay#3? And also the wire size from Relay#3 to Fuel Pump? I heard it is 18 AWG, so I'm assuming it's 18 AWG from IGN to FP.
Update: calculations are revised for 14 awg

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.evo...cd44480c4d.png

14 AWG has resistance of 0.002525 Ohms/ft.

Let's assume it is 3 feet to Relay#3 and 15 feet to FP. And ground is also 14 AWG and is 5 feet equivalent to battery. Total length is 23 feet times 0.002525 ohms/ft. We get 0.0581 ohms.

AEM 320 lph pump spec is: Current Draw (80 psi): 15 amps (13.5v).

Let's assume we get 18A draw. Voltage drop is 18A × 0.0581 Ohms = 1.05V. So 14V at Relay #3 ends up around 12.95V. Does this look close?

Next, let's look at soldering two 16 awg to the stock 14 awg. Resistance in each is 0.004016 ohms per foot. To get total resistance, you add the inverse. 1/0.004016 + 1/0.004016 + 1/0.002525 = 654.6 and then take inverse, which is 1/894.05 = 0.0011185 ohms/ft.

So for same 23 feet, I get 0.0011185 ohms/ft × 23 ft × 18A = 0.463V
So with 14V at IGN, I expect Voltage at pump to be around 13.5V.

This is a lot of work to gain 0.5V. It is strange for someone to claim gaining 0.5V by using 4 awg wire and grounding only the black pump wire to car.


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