Wavetrac vs 1-way vs 1.5 way front diff experiences?
Jul 4, 2017, 09:48 AM
#3
Thanks much. I figure not many people had experience with all three. Dallas mentioned your experience with the Wavetrac not preventing spin on lifting tire. Did you discuss with Autotech to understand why the tire was spinning? Did Wavetrac have turn-in understeer? Dallas also likes 1-way best for auto-x.
Last edited by mrfred; Jul 5, 2017 at 10:54 AM.
Jul 4, 2017, 09:25 PM
#4
The wavetrac did work well for like 1 day. While I didn't talk to autotech, the problem is pretty obvious, the preload friction surface is just too small and wears out quickly. Putting down power through a lightly loaded tire operating at roughly -6 deg of dynamic camber isn't exactly easy on the equipment. There wasn't any noticeable increase of turn-in understeer over a factory torsen front diff, which is to say it wasn't bad.
Jul 5, 2017, 09:54 AM
#5
The wavetrac did work well for like 1 day. While I didn't talk to autotech, the problem is pretty obvious, the preload friction surface is just too small and wears out quickly. Putting down power through a lightly loaded tire operating at roughly -6 deg of dynamic camber isn't exactly easy on the equipment. There wasn't any noticeable increase of turn-in understeer over a factory torsen front diff, which is to say it wasn't bad.
Jul 5, 2017, 10:02 AM
#6
EvoM Guru
iTrader: (1)
My wavetrac works awesome on track. AutoX it falls a bit short, but my car isn't an autoX car.
Jul 5, 2017, 10:02 AM
#7
The product works for many as advertised.
RoadRace Engineering equipped many road racing Evos with Wavetrac: why not contact them and ask them specifically about friction material durability and wear- do they experience loss of ability to provide traction with 1 wheel off the ground due to wear?
http://roadraceengineering.com/blog/
Wavetrac is also somewhat widely used in BMW world, perhaps one of the BMW sport-racing specialists will have some feedback?
https://store.vacmotorsports.com/wav...e9x-p2085.aspx
Vacmotorsports supports many racers
I would also ask Shep, I got mine from them and they know it so very well including servicing and repairing, that its hard to find better independent knowledgeable feedback:http://sheptrans.com/product/evo-4-9...front-incl-mr/
RoadRace Engineering equipped many road racing Evos with Wavetrac: why not contact them and ask them specifically about friction material durability and wear- do they experience loss of ability to provide traction with 1 wheel off the ground due to wear?
http://roadraceengineering.com/blog/
Wavetrac is also somewhat widely used in BMW world, perhaps one of the BMW sport-racing specialists will have some feedback?
https://store.vacmotorsports.com/wav...e9x-p2085.aspx
Vacmotorsports supports many racers
I would also ask Shep, I got mine from them and they know it so very well including servicing and repairing, that its hard to find better independent knowledgeable feedback:http://sheptrans.com/product/evo-4-9...front-incl-mr/
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Jul 5, 2017, 10:07 AM
#8
Found a Golf hillclimb car that used to be using Quaife, and moved onto Wavetrac.
The video is reversed:
first half he shows current Wavetrac, turn, give full throttle, hooks up and goes.
second half he shows the car with OLD Quaife setup, turn, give throttle, lift to get traction, than go..slippped.
This video is a pair of clips from a corner at one of the hillclimbs I do where I tend to lift the inside front wheel off the ground in the turn with my MK2 VW GTI. The first part was taken after installing the Wavetrac and the second part is from the previous event when I still used a Quiafe. In the first part I rolled into the throttle at the apex and held my foot to the floor. In the second I rolled into the throttle but had to lift a bit to keep the inside tire wheelspin manageable until the car settled and put some weight back on that corner.
The video is reversed:
first half he shows current Wavetrac, turn, give full throttle, hooks up and goes.
second half he shows the car with OLD Quaife setup, turn, give throttle, lift to get traction, than go..slippped.
This video is a pair of clips from a corner at one of the hillclimbs I do where I tend to lift the inside front wheel off the ground in the turn with my MK2 VW GTI. The first part was taken after installing the Wavetrac and the second part is from the previous event when I still used a Quiafe. In the first part I rolled into the throttle at the apex and held my foot to the floor. In the second I rolled into the throttle but had to lift a bit to keep the inside tire wheelspin manageable until the car settled and put some weight back on that corner.
Jul 5, 2017, 10:21 AM
#9
An explanation of wavetrac on line says it has 6 friction surfaces on a ring that are carbon, that give friction: as we know from Carbon to Metal clutches, its the metal that wears (metal friction face overheats and warps) - not the carbon that wears.
Since Wavetrac has generous Carbon friction surface to Metal ratio ratio, i.e. metal being so much bigger surface and with solid generously size mass/cooling (oil and whole structure to dissipate heat), chances are if the 6 buttons are well made the friction plate will function for long time reliably.
If you check this video, you can see how the speed difference "actuates ramps" that mechanically push proportionally harder the friction surfaces together, and lock the two wheels to turn at the same speed.
And now the AWESOME FIND:
Please see this page of Wavetrac description,
http://www.wavetrac.net/technical.htm
It says that Carbon friction plates are long wearing and specced for best all around torque bias (typical street car upgrading to Wavetrac), but it also says that there are Carbon Friction plates of Various friction-coefficient available separately, to customize the torque bias capability (and presumably durability).
Which means that you/we can A) Service B) upgrade to higher friction to ensure better performance under higher loads of high-grip R compound tires and high torque engines.
Since Wavetrac has generous Carbon friction surface to Metal ratio ratio, i.e. metal being so much bigger surface and with solid generously size mass/cooling (oil and whole structure to dissipate heat), chances are if the 6 buttons are well made the friction plate will function for long time reliably.
If you check this video, you can see how the speed difference "actuates ramps" that mechanically push proportionally harder the friction surfaces together, and lock the two wheels to turn at the same speed.
And now the AWESOME FIND:
Please see this page of Wavetrac description,
http://www.wavetrac.net/technical.htm
It says that Carbon friction plates are long wearing and specced for best all around torque bias (typical street car upgrading to Wavetrac), but it also says that there are Carbon Friction plates of Various friction-coefficient available separately, to customize the torque bias capability (and presumably durability).
Which means that you/we can A) Service B) upgrade to higher friction to ensure better performance under higher loads of high-grip R compound tires and high torque engines.
Jul 5, 2017, 10:46 AM
#10
I called Autotech and spoke to a tech who knew enough, but maybe not as much as we'd like to know.
According to him, because of the specific size-limitation of an Evo Wavetrac, they do not offer alternative friction plates: they do warranty the unit for life, so anytime you can send it in and have that plate with 6 carbon buttons replaced free of any charge.
For some cars, each application is specific, they do offer alternative friction materials: what is interesting is that it seems the alternative materials ARE NOT CARBON - i.e. materials are ceramic or metallic (Doubt organic)- and can have higher friction but will wear much sooner compared to Carbon.
What I deduce form this is that the Carbon "buttons" are purchased item available in certain compound/size, and therefore Autotech designed the specific disc to hold what is/was available moderately economically on the market.
To seek alternative carbon buttons, or have custom made carbon friction disc, may not be economically justifiable for Autotech..although we may disagree.
Well, this brings yet another alternative option: instead of 6, why not 8 or more carbon pads?
That could be configured, based on visual inspection of the disc with 6 pucks in the technical description video/images.
At the end of the conversation the Tech re-assured me that the carbon material was outstanding in durability and torque handling/biasing capability, and should not wear virtually ever, let alone after 1 Autocross event.
Evo community has driven vendors/individuals to offer new solutions, I see opportunity here for Wavetrac to make us a custom disc with more pads to increase torque capacity and to extend reliability, and if the pads are mounted onto steel ring that ring cannot be prohibitively expensive.
According to him, because of the specific size-limitation of an Evo Wavetrac, they do not offer alternative friction plates: they do warranty the unit for life, so anytime you can send it in and have that plate with 6 carbon buttons replaced free of any charge.
For some cars, each application is specific, they do offer alternative friction materials: what is interesting is that it seems the alternative materials ARE NOT CARBON - i.e. materials are ceramic or metallic (Doubt organic)- and can have higher friction but will wear much sooner compared to Carbon.
What I deduce form this is that the Carbon "buttons" are purchased item available in certain compound/size, and therefore Autotech designed the specific disc to hold what is/was available moderately economically on the market.
To seek alternative carbon buttons, or have custom made carbon friction disc, may not be economically justifiable for Autotech..although we may disagree.
Well, this brings yet another alternative option: instead of 6, why not 8 or more carbon pads?
That could be configured, based on visual inspection of the disc with 6 pucks in the technical description video/images.
At the end of the conversation the Tech re-assured me that the carbon material was outstanding in durability and torque handling/biasing capability, and should not wear virtually ever, let alone after 1 Autocross event.
Evo community has driven vendors/individuals to offer new solutions, I see opportunity here for Wavetrac to make us a custom disc with more pads to increase torque capacity and to extend reliability, and if the pads are mounted onto steel ring that ring cannot be prohibitively expensive.
Jul 5, 2017, 10:52 AM
#11
Ivica,
Thanks on the links. I've seen most of those already. The challenge is that I don't think there are many people who have direct experience between a standard torsen and a Wavetrac on the same vehicle. griceiv's experience and the Golf video aren't necessarily contradictory. griceiv said that his worked well for a short period of time. Another data point in the discussion is a recent youtube video of a 335i showing the Wavetrac providing almost no benefit with minimal friction to one wheel. At this point, I would say the best benefit of Wavetrac is that it is much stronger than the factory helical:
Thanks on the links. I've seen most of those already. The challenge is that I don't think there are many people who have direct experience between a standard torsen and a Wavetrac on the same vehicle. griceiv's experience and the Golf video aren't necessarily contradictory. griceiv said that his worked well for a short period of time. Another data point in the discussion is a recent youtube video of a 335i showing the Wavetrac providing almost no benefit with minimal friction to one wheel. At this point, I would say the best benefit of Wavetrac is that it is much stronger than the factory helical:
Last edited by mrfred; Jul 5, 2017 at 11:03 PM.
Jul 5, 2017, 11:20 AM
#13
My original interest in an upgraded front diff was avoiding having the stock one explode on me, and the Wavetrac would fix that, but I have had a few instances where the inside front has lost traction in a corner, and the car fell on its face pretty good. I figure that I might as well get something that fixes the cornering issue as well.