It is sad to see Mark, Tom, and Shiv parting ways. We all love our cars, whether its an Evo or STI. However, there are inherent dangers we all risk in moding our cars. I know for a fact that if I jack my engine up because I modified my Evo in any way, then Mitsubishi will void my warranty and possibly blame me for the engine failures.

When I go to try and get my Evo to pass smog in 2007, I will run the risk of not passing because of my camshafts and exhaust. This is something I am willing to accept and will have to deal with when that time comes. I am also concerned with what my insurance will tell me when I crash me Evo at the next EOC track event and I am asking them to fix my car.

I am not siding with anyone here, but we are all on EvoM to learn about our vehicles and to avoid problems like blowing our engines. Unfortunately. there always has to be someone to test the limit on what our cars can and can't handle. I guess it's just part of the learning process...

Gnulooks

 

Kid was used as a noun, sorry, man, person, him her it he she, pick any. I still think the tuner should have some hand in repairing the car. And you cannot honestly blame the person whose car is currently broken as I will bring up the Dr. analogy, as in a car is finite just like a body. A person goes to a Dr. to get help and improve himself, regardless of what the patient says they need it is up to the Dr to make an expert decision, not the patient telling the Dr. what he needs. We need a more professional attitude from the vendor. He knows the cars abilities and their limits, and allowing the customers to tell the vender what to do is a no-no. Just like if he/she tells the Dr. that he/she needs a prescription of 5 Crack rocks a Day to keep him going, it may work for a lil' while, but it’ll eventually kill him and is not in the best interest of the customer. And if a Dr./tuner feels that this is not helpful or can be extremely harmful, he/she should not perform that task/prescribe those crack rocks. Shivi knew full well that the person whould go and race that car, and now it blew because it was on the edge, that is irresponsible, as he is a professional while the customer is paying for his intelectual property. The moment he gives in to a "inferior" suggestion about something he is absolutely certian upon, it is just not right.


On the other hand Tuners are held to a standard very similar to Dr’s, in that they should be infallible. They are humen, just like you and me, can make mistakes and have feelings, And if/when they do make a mistake, people, feel that they should be 100% responsible regardless of the stupididity of the patient/car owner.

The best I can see it, if a Tuner truly represents himself as a tuner, then the/she back up their products/tuning. You know damn well that this person left with his car exactly as the tuner left it. So at least a 50-50 arraignment should be done. If the vender refuses that means he can’t be trusted and will do this to anyone that gets a problem like this, if the owner refuses (wanting 100% compensation) then he/she is not willing to accept responsibility for their actions of willfully modifiiying a car.

My shop on the other hand, accepts 100% of any problem I bring them with their mods, and fixes it free or at an extreme discount, at a moments notice, so maybe I am spoiled…


Again, if the tuner does not provide any help or deal, he/she is worthless IMHO and will continue to do so to other customers as he/she feels that they have no responsibility and can get away with it. If they help, then they are the professionals, they need to be responsible for their work, actions, not words .

 

...the "ideal" situation...
I know it will come, in time.
tuners, customers, or anyone who messes with the EVO here in the US, are definitely still in the learning process. AND THAT"S OK.
the "S.Koyama's" haven't fully developed yet here - in the US.
But for as long as we show interest in pushing the EVO's engine, and keep a healthy market, I am pretty sure we will soon have tuners who will have a keen knowledge of our cars, and will have an authoritative say on tuning it.

our desires would be satisfied that we would simply be happy with just paying the bill

for now...since I don't have the $$$ to have JUN work on my car...well, we just enjoy the great service that our tuners make possible, enjoy the EVO, and learn from mistakes.

 

You can not compare a patient and his Dr. to a car and tuner. The patient is a sick guy who might die if the Dr could not help him but the car is fine and running great and the owner wants to make more power from it not FIX IT. When you mode your car you are at risk and you should fully accept the risk. Shiv is NOT a DR. he tried to satisfy his customer needs (Mark), (2 brothers are trying to show off with time slips and race ).

 

Why should the tuner be responcible if they were asked to tune the car to the ragged edge? Ok, say that Shiv had said "no, I do not think that I want to tune it that close to the failure point, I am sorry but I just do not want to be liable for any future problems." What kind of post do you think that we would see right after that? "Man, Shiv sucks, he doesn't know what he is doing. I took my XBJ-9 to him wanting some more power and he said no because it was going to break if he did, he just doesn't know what he is doing. And everyone says that he is some sort of a supertuner, I will take my car to John Gofasters shop, I bet that he knows what he is doing unlike that inept idiot.".... Just tell me that poeple would not ***** when he said "no" to pushing it. If the end cosumer is informed of the risks and then decides to go forth with the changes, then take it like a man because you asked for it. I understand the rivalry between Tom and Mark in their HP/Tq and timeslip wars, but one car or the other is going to break sooner or later. The stock bottom ends are just going to take so much, hell, ask me how I know. But that is part of the game, if you want to play you will pay.

 

ok...last i checked a slipped bearing has nothing to do with the engine management it is more like lack of lubrication (pump failure, low pressure or overfilled pan) and is hardly considered a "Blown Engine". Joey, sorry bout your engine..."ding ding ding" ROUND 3.

 

hiya,
The doctor analogy doesn't really work, imho. Doctors, for example, are governed by the hippocratic oath in where all their decisions and efforts ared centered upon on the health and longevity of the patient. Tuners make decisions upon the needs of the customer, not necessarily the health and longevity of the car. If longevity was the only concern, we wouldn't modify them. But usually, there is some commonality based with the needs of the customer and long-term durability of the car. But in a few cases, there isn't. Especially when it comes to racing and when trying to extract performance well beyond the capabilities of the platform.

shiv

 

Hippocratic oath you mean? Didn't want people to think Doctors, and therefore tuners were hypocrites

 

Tuners need to be more responsible with other peoples cars and apply their knowledge to their work, not apply the customer’s “Knowledge”. People come in with money and pie in the sky dreams and want things done that may not be possible without a LOT of money or hurting the car; they know little of what you do or tuning for the matter. My tuner will not allow something that can be harmful to a customers ride to be done, no matter what the customer asks and even turn down Business if it is a conflict. It sounds like this is what happened here. I mean how do you expect the tuner to blame the customer? Are you going to take the customers advice and tune by that and then blame him? If you did, you get what happened here. A tuner needs to look out for the best interests of the client no matter what the client says, there needs to be a complete professional attitude, or atleast fully explaine the negatives to the customer, and if that does not work, refuse to do that to the car. Who is the professional here? You could have simply stated that "this is all the car has, any more and it will blow"

Of course the customer has NEEDS and your supposed to fit them the best you can. But are you saying it’s ok to harm a customers car simply because he is asking for something his car can’t handle? The car has limits that you know of, and the customer obviously does not. The reason I used the Dr. analogy is that the Dr. has absolute knowledge in this field and is held to a high standard. He/she makes BIG bucks on just his/her opinion, and so do tuners. A Tuner simply cannot have their judgment compromised by inferior suggestions. Hell give me a car and I'll do whatever the customer asks me too, the car won't last though, that’s for sure. The difference is that there is no responsibility taken here, it's all written off.


To me, this is the difference between a wrench turner and a professional, a professional simply will not let their judgment be compromised, it was here.

 

 

I think a better analogy would be asking your doctor for steroids. There are legal and grey areas for them.

It's your job to know the difference not just his.

 

I don't understand why you would roll your eyes at a statement like that. Don't you believe that you should do the best job you can with the interest of safety and longevity? Don't you feel that you should be responsible for your actions? I understand that the customer was well blinded by the fact that his car was not as fast as the Evo and wanted it to run as fast that his reasoning was thrown out the window in the interest of power. This is where a tuner needs to step in and say that the engine is not strong enough or you need a bigger turbo and injectors and so on. I am not saying you took advantage, but you knew that this would eventually lead to an engine failure, you'd have to as your are an experienced tuner. but it seems like you did not care what happened to his car and placed the blame squarely on his shoulders when he has no idea what he is talking about nor the limits of his car, thats all I am saying. Both had a hand here.

This is in no way 100% the tuners fault, but I believe that some responsibilty needs to be taken, otherwise your paying someone who simply does not care about their customers cars. A deal on parts or deep discounted labor on the rebuild and so on.

 

umiami80, your view of the customer-tuner relationship seems to take nearly all responsibility away from the customer. That's pretty convenient when you consider how much abuse can be levied on a car by a customer in between visits to his tuner. I'm not even talking about obvious abuse. Let's say a tuner tunes your car with a boost controller and then behind their back you up the boost past the point of wisdom. The head gasket blows and the customer turns the boost back down and tows it in to the tuner's shop crying foul.

Point being, responsibility in the customer-tuner relationship is as much about trust as it is business. The more trust there is, the more responsibility can be shared. What brings trust? Listening to your tuner's recommendation brings trust for the customer. Driving your tuned car hard for 20,000 miles without any engine issues brings trust for the tuner. Repeat business and good rapport brings trust for the customer. Seeing how your tuner makes good when something goes wrong outside your control brings trust for the tuner.

When advice is not followed, when something goes wrong, then the relationship is purely business because there can be no trust. That's why waivers are signed. That's why disclaimers are given. At that point, it's purely a practical question of how much your business is worth and how much the tuner's time is worth, that determine whether the tuner will go the extra mile to make you whole or kindly point you to the waiver you signed.

It's nice to idealize the tuner as doctor but I doubt many tuners whose time is worth very much would agree with you.

 

There is a fine line between abuse and and engine tuned too hard or too lean. It was established that the car was not tuned safely and is teh only thing these two (customer/tuner) can agree on. That is the basis of my argument. If the kid did all this on his own AFTER a safe tune, you would be right. But the fact is the car left the tuner with an unsafe tune to begin with. Of course the customer does not know or is too stupid to know, if he did, he would have done it himself and not paid a tuner to mod his car.


Thats is not what happened here, but if this happened, once again you would be correct.


My tuners do, I think they are the Best in the business, they even fixed sh.it I broke without even making a stink. Only tuners who refuse to take responsibility for their actions would fail to see it this way, that's all. Shiv is not 100% at fault, no way no how, but I feel he should help out with the repair of the car. I know he is a great tuner, and this thread should not be used in any way to discredit him, but he did tune a car to a state he did not feel was right, and then let it go. That is all I am saying.

 

Believe me we wanted all the best for these guys. It was his decision not ours to not accept reality when a new motor at our heavily discounted dealer cost and just enough labor to pay our tech (as he gets paid only on a per job basis) The total out of pocket for both of us would have been around 1,000. When the stipulation was that this new factory block was going to be tuned to the level of all other stage2 STis ~335-340 on our dyno(same as the famous Viper run with the 11.8) the comment was "unacceptable" and "a step backwards" The demand included a $6000 race motor and a GT 35R!! So we could start this whole thing in a infinate loop I guess. There isnt much need for us to go on about this here at best we had totally different ways to do what was the right thing.

David