Lets start off with a math equation. Smogs car put down 354 whp on their dyno but on Shiv's dyno approx 311 whp several months earlier. So about 44 whp difference between dynos. Now info that I was not supposed to know about but was leaked out was that on Shiv's moon dyno the red beast put down over 480whp. Well lets see if the correction factors are similar and consistent between both cars. Well from Smoggies car approx 1.14 factor applies. 311x1.14= 354whp(what Smoggyput down at XS was 354whp) . Now Shiv's beast put down 480 whp on his moon Dyno which =480x1.14 = 547 whp approx on XS dyno. Shiv's car is within 16 whp based off of the above analysis which is close enough to conclude that 563 whp is not out of the realm of possibilities(weather differences,humidity,daily variances,higher hp more variance etc) and that the dyno was probably set-up similarly as to the big Evo meet. Why is it so hard to believe that a turbo(gt-35) that has been known to put down big numbers by other competent tuners is not believed when Shiv achieves similar results. What size turbo is on the Sparco Evo and is it the same size or what is its whp potential. I was there and I remember Shiv could barely figure out how to operate that dyno let alone fix it to read better numbers. I had to go get some workers when he got stuck dynoing the car for the magazine. And from what I remember about his car dynoing the XS engineering guys ran that show and he was too busy trying to get his car strapped down correctly. FWIW It was the quickest dyno pull I had heard or seen ever. I believe Shiv based off of the fact I was there and that i saw the car dyno and saw who was in charge of the dyno. Shiv was not running the show when they dynoed his car. He only did one run and I asked him to try another to see if he could do better since he just put the c-16 in with the 91 oct. He said I think i can get more out of it but people are already going to hate or not believe me for this number 563whp. I don't want to start too much of a commotion and be accused of rubbing it in other respected tuners faces.FWIW That is my objective opinion based off of being there and witnessing this with my own eyes. Now do I believe that this is a conservative race tune that Paul Gerard used for the C&D shootout? NO it wasn't because the C&D shootout was limited to pumpgas. Could this tune be used for a road course event? Maybe. Could this tune be used for a drag race?Definitely. Did this red beast put down an 11.5 at 120 on pump gas. Yes. On c-16 would a ten second time slip be possible. Very possible if nothing breaks. Pump gas to race gas on a big turbo can equal 80 whp at least (with proper tuning)which should be good for a 10 sec slip if driven properly on the right track in the right conditions. It does not take an advanced mathmatical education to add up the numbers and deduce that Shiv's car is legit and his car put down significantly higher #s than the other Evos at that Dyno day. If the dyno was caliberated wrong or differently than when the Spareco Evo dynoed Shiv was not responsible for the manipulation. Now do I believe Shiv came down to show everybody that his moon Dyno reads low and that his Evo has respectable whp that stacks up well against other tuners evos? Of course he wanted to represent. If you were one of the best in the business wouldn't you want to represent. That's like Michael Jordan sitting the bench or not shooting because he doesn't want to show up the other players in the NBA. It is called competition guys and if MJ or Shiv want to get paid they better represent with superior numbers. He has proven his tuning on the racetrack and on the Dyno what more empiracal evidence do you guys want. Oh yeah I guess it is quite coincidental that the 10 customers cars dynoed at xS and all the tuners cars dynoed at XS the top performers in both classes were Vishnu tunes. Moderators please do not delete this post. People need to hear it from somebody that experienced both events.

 

but probably not necessary for level headed people

IMO - people like Shiv, Chrono, etc. need not explain themselves to such attacks. A little salt goes a long way

But thanks!

 

1) Shiv should come out and clearly state that the 550+WHP number was wrong, and that the 493 number should be the number go by.

2) Although Shiv made a mistake, I don't think that he is a liar and did this intentionally. I don't think anyone has the right to say that Shiv put the probe in the exhaust manifold, exhaust or radiator intentionally unless they specifically have proof he did so.

 

Do you honestly think that the head of a fairly good sized company in the racing industry with sales thousands of times more than any tuner would get involved with this matter in less they knew that it was true and could prove it? Do you even have any understanding of how big of a presence Sparco is in the racing world and how well respected?

This company and its founder are the epitomy of integrity.

Arguing dyno correction factors misses the point- It was a bogus pull and the folks at XS and everyone else know this. The high intake number means only one of 2 things:

1) Intentional manipulation to inflate the numbers

2) Unintentional accident

If it was # 2 and somehow this is all just an accident, Scott and the folks at XS wouldn't be so pissed. In any case, the only forthright thing to do is to come immediately out and disclaim the results.

The fact that an inaccurate dyno pull was knowingly represented as accurate to the evo community is the real issue.

I am not raising this issue to cause more flame- I am sure that the Vishnu car can put down some amazing numbers. Unfortunately, This result at XS is not accurate and being confronted with this fact and still representing them as accurate inspite of this has not been addressed in a direct manner.

Disclaim the result and get a new one if you want but don't pass something off that isn't true.

Please do not delete this post. I am not attacking anyone and raising important issues...

 

Over the last few weeks, I've tried to have a more cooperative spirit with other members on these forums whom I disagree with. I've ignored the guys that grate my nerves and tried not to read inflamatory threads.

After closer examination of this situation, though, I feel compelled to comment about this. Shiv's credibility being attacked by a couple of visible people really pisses me off. But I want to turn down the volume of that drama and offer some examples of my own car, which correlate nicely with this dyno discrepancy.

My car has close to 60 passes on it at Dyno4mance in Calhoun. Its a Dyno Dynamics system, and I've become quite familiar with it. Although it is a bit different from XS Engineering's dyno, it is pretty much straight needle repeatable to itself. What I mean is, even though I've dynoed during different times of the year and with wildly different intake temperatures, the corrected numbers are pretty similar.

The last time I was there, my car put down 270whp with an intake temp of around 85 degrees IIRC. It was warm in the shop, but comfortable. Outside, it was a cool evening, just under 80 degrees. Every time I test, I put the intake temp probe in the same place, just inside the intake scoop that travels to the stock airbox.

The time I was there about 3 weeks before, it was nearly the same temperature outside, but we had been running a couple of cars in the shop, the garage door was half closed, and it was _STUPID HOT_ in the shop. I was sweating profusely that day, and remember standing in front of the dyno fan to try to dry off a little bit. I looked at the probe temperature, and verified how freaking hot it really was right in the work area. The probe read 109 degrees!! But the correction factor was ever vigilant that day as well. Even though it was sweltering in the shop, my corrected number came back a rock solid 271.8whp. With an intake temp variance of almost 25 degrees, my numbers were still straight needle accurate. This is because was truly hot in the shop that day.

My point in this is that I know that Shiv or any tuner wouldn't purposely manipulate such an obvious number if he wanted to lie. Heck, he could inflate the numbers on his own Dyno Dynamics system, but instead reports truthfully, and everyone that dynos there gets the "Man, your car reads low" crap speech from those who aren't used to Dyno Dynamics systems.

He obviously just placed the probe where he always does, and now his credibility is being attacked by such characters as Sparco and Robi for it? That's BS. If anybody is the victim here, its Vishnu for getting character defamation for doing business as usual.

Haters are easy to spot a mile away, and the reality of what happened is crystal clear to me. I hope this post is truly considered and weighed, because I don't think this accusation is fair in the least. Have a great Tuesday.

Seth

 

Since when is 563 whp not possible on this engine with a big turbo and proper tuning.If his car did 563whp why would Shiv admit to anybody that he attempted to pull the wool over the Evo communities eyes through manipulation when he did not. So AMS,Buscher and other tuners can extract big numbers out of bigger turbos and not be called a liar but Shiv does it and it instantly gets challenged. MMLVMM Enron was a well repected company that supposedly was ethical and beyond reproach and on paper appeared to be head and shoulders above all. Well we all know that story so your conjecture about Spareco being above any unethical practices and beyond reproach is not really a good defense. Anything is possible if it involves Shiv and So Cal. FWIW I was there at XS and Shiv was not IMO treated like the rest of the Evo community as witnessed that prior Sat. It seemed to me that other tuners were treated more respectfully than Shiv was and it would not surprise me if XS backs up Sparecos claims due to good business sense and an undocumented dislike of Shiv like 1/2 of the So Cal community. In my objective opinion big Al was treated really good at XS and was able to pimp his dynoflashes w/o question. Shiv did not get the same hospitality but did not complain. Ended up doing a flash ghettofab style borrowing a local framers electrical outlet along with my firmware updates. I was pissed when they denied him the use of their electrical outlet but Shiv said that was cool and was more than respectful of their request. So it would not surprise me if they conspire against Shiv and come to Sparecos and the rest of So Cals defense because it would make good business sense. Defending Shiv in any way shape or form would not be good for business in So Cal so I expect them XS to back Spareco and the rest of you SO Cal haters.

 

It's not about how capable the GT35R is or people not knowing how capable it is, IE Evo. No matter how much HP he measured, the temp probe still said 136 or so degrees. That's the issue at hand, not Shiv's car capabilities with that turbo.

And, the 311whp Smogrunner got on Shiv's dyno was not on the race gas he used at XS engineering. I remember Tom telling us at the XS meet that the race gas makes about a 30 - 40whp difference for his Evo. He mentioned his dyno pull of 311whp on Shiv's dyno right after he said that. I assume he was using that as an example of the HP difference from running 91 octane....

 

No one doubts that Shiv can tune a car (or at least I don't), so he made 493 Whp uncorrected. And no one thinks 550Whp is impossible, AMS made 667 (Martin explained that using different settings that's 690WHP)
The XS number over 550+ is completely wrong, everyone knows it. So why doesn't Vishnu just say they screwed up. I don't think they did it intentionally, but it was still wrong.

 

The 493whp uncorrected numbers refect a dyno run taken at standard ambient and inlet temps. In shop temps were in the 90s that day. Inlet temps could easily be 10-20F higher than that. Anyone who suggests otherwise really needs to spend more time with thermocouples Even if we re-correct the testing conditions down to something that the socal guys can agree on, the corrected numbers would still be in the 525-540whp range (which, not surprisingly, is what I predicted based upon Smoggie's % delta between his dyno at our shop and down at XS).

Cheers,
Shiv

 

One more time:

 

Someone needs to lock this thread...

IE they just cant see if from your perspective, no matter how much you want them too... God how I hate the internet sometimes...

Terry S

 

Self-edited to limit the noise here!

 

It was 79 August 5th the day Shiv was there in and around XS according to weather.com records. It was much hotter inside.
http://www.weather.com/weather/monthly/92648?month=0

 

Damn how pathetic. Did you guys have to go to the corner gas station to use the restrooms aswell?

 

I also live 10 minutes from XS.. 90+ in a shop packed with cars is shouldn't be that hard to do in HB..

Terry S