There are failsafes, failsafes and failsafes...
Mar 5, 2008, 04:55 PM
#77
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Due to constant requests for DDS3 wiring for third party WAI systems, I have attached a few library wiring diagrams. If anyone require other wiring diagrams for other systems. Also "how to" wire to MBC and EBC, please pm me.
DDS3v8 has two failsafe two output channels plus one analogue output channel to track "real-time" flow (user scaleable).
We can also supply any fittings on request, for example -4AN. New 303 stainless turbine housing.
DDS3v8 has two failsafe two output channels plus one analogue output channel to track "real-time" flow (user scaleable).
We can also supply any fittings on request, for example -4AN. New 303 stainless turbine housing.
Mar 8, 2008, 10:31 AM
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It is still 1/8BSP.
We are going to supply extra fittings for 1/4" hose. Perhaps 1/4" hose to 1/8 BSP quick fit. Do you know who makes them?
We have made batch of 1/8NPT in/out ports but was afraid peole might over tightening them and breaks the sensor.
The question was, how deep should we tap the thread into the hole. We have tried halfway in but the fitting looks untidy. Using plumber's tape loks even more untidy.
So we eventually decided to stay at 1/8BSP, sealed by washer or o-ring. Never need to over tighten to achieve good seal.
We are going to supply extra fittings for 1/4" hose. Perhaps 1/4" hose to 1/8 BSP quick fit. Do you know who makes them?
We have made batch of 1/8NPT in/out ports but was afraid peole might over tightening them and breaks the sensor.
The question was, how deep should we tap the thread into the hole. We have tried halfway in but the fitting looks untidy. Using plumber's tape loks even more untidy.
So we eventually decided to stay at 1/8BSP, sealed by washer or o-ring. Never need to over tighten to achieve good seal.
Mar 16, 2008, 03:27 PM
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Since our failsafe is not represented in this thread I would like to post a little bit about it. I would put failsafes into several catagories.
1) Home made user failsafe. This can be as simple as using a float switch, in line pressure sensor and some relays.
2) ECU: If you have an ECU you may have the ability to perform various failsafe functions such as switching maps or timing reduction.
3) Typical Kit maker Failsafe. These are usually very good "plug and play" type failsafes. A good example would be the Labonte IFS. Another example would be the DD3s. These typically use a flow sensor to detect flow rates an optional gauge can let you have a view as to whats going on. The advantage of these types is that they are typically plug and play with little configuration. The disadvantage of these types will be the limited functionality. They are purpose built to track flow rate, determine if you should be flowing and in the case of a hardware failure, over flow or what ever it can activate a failsafe. These can be a 3 way valve or disable your electronic boost controller.
Our controller known as Vari-Safe...or better known as Smart injection combines all of the above, and does something very different in allowing the customer to custom define what he wants to do as a failsafe. A picture is below:
So what makes Smart Injection different? Lets look at the hardware inputs/outputs before we discuss this.
Inputs:
Frequency inputs (2) Can be used for RPM, Frequency based MAF and many off the shelf flow sensors including our upcoming flow sensor.
0-5v inputs (4) Can be used for TPS, MAP, MAF, Air temp, water temp, Wideband AFR, and many off the shelf flow sensors and flow sensors from other water injection companies
EGT input (1). Connect any thermocouple into this to integrate EGT. if you for any reason you need more than 1 EGT input, we have amplifiers that can convert the EGT signal to 0-5V and can be input to any of the 0-5V inputs.
OUTPUTS
0-5V output Any of the signals above can be converted to 0-5V. You can even take a subset of that signal. For example, if you wanted to take a RPM from 2000 to 5250 RPM and convert to a 0-5V you can do that. In addition you can take any 2 inputs and create a 0-5V output based on both settings (by setting up a simple table).
Map clamp. You can clamp the 0-5V output based on any of the output settings (output settings are based on input settings).
5V power (can power any 5V device using less than 1 amp).
5 switchable highspeed ground outputs. You can turn on/off upto 5 different devices based on your inputs.
3 programmable LEDS integrated into the top of the unit. You can make these blink fast, blink slow, go solid or turn off based on any input or output or combination of input/output.
With our product you can integrate any 3rd party sensor as well. For example, if you want to disable your boost if you are out of water, you can simply put a low level float switch and connect to one of the 0-5V inputs (anything past 5 volts gets dumped). Set it up to disable your boost if you are low on water. Thats simple. Lets say now you have a flow sensor hooked up to one of the 0-5V inputs, you can set it up to disable your boost if you are at, below, above any range of flow rates. you can even set it up to switch to an auxillary water injection system incase of problem.
You can integrate your wideband (as long as it as a 0-5V output or pulsed output or millivolt output). Most have a 0-5V output. You can set Smart Injection up to inject more if you are lean or to disable your boost, etc.
In addition, this is also a water/meth injection controller, nitrous controller, its an RPM window switch, boost light, etc.
Sorry about the long post, I just wanted to discuss some key features of our failsafe. We have this available as a stand alone failsafe and as a Kit. The WRX/STI kit is configured to work out of the box, just wire it up. When its ordered as just a failsafe, the customer uses a laptop or desktop to set it up. Once its setup, you dont need to use your laptop unless you want to datalog (8 channel datalogger).
Here is a nice 6 page PDF that we went from start to finish to setup a water/meth injection and failsafe for an electronic boost controller. This was a WRX version, but the same concept. If you were going to use MAF, since EVO is not 0-5V, just use one of the 2 frequency counters to setup your MAF. This shows you a great idea of whats involved in setting of a failsafe with this kit. In this example we inject based on either MAP/MAF and RPM. We could have integrated all 3, but 2 will be suffice. We chose to inject when RPM is above 3500 and MAF/MAP is above 2 volts (on EVO we would use HZ for frequency). In addition, if you are out of water, have a clog, or are not flowing when you should be, the boost controller is disabled. While the abilities of this controller go far beyond what is in this document, it shows you how easy it is to setup a simple kit with it. You dont need to run this as a controller, it can be a failsafe for an existing controller as well.
http://www.coolingmist.net/instructi...xstistage1.pdf
more details on the failsafe here, including a 30 page PDF for advanced users. It includes projects and diagrams.
http://www.coolingmist.com/detailmain.aspx?pid=1099
1) Home made user failsafe. This can be as simple as using a float switch, in line pressure sensor and some relays.
2) ECU: If you have an ECU you may have the ability to perform various failsafe functions such as switching maps or timing reduction.
3) Typical Kit maker Failsafe. These are usually very good "plug and play" type failsafes. A good example would be the Labonte IFS. Another example would be the DD3s. These typically use a flow sensor to detect flow rates an optional gauge can let you have a view as to whats going on. The advantage of these types is that they are typically plug and play with little configuration. The disadvantage of these types will be the limited functionality. They are purpose built to track flow rate, determine if you should be flowing and in the case of a hardware failure, over flow or what ever it can activate a failsafe. These can be a 3 way valve or disable your electronic boost controller.
Our controller known as Vari-Safe...or better known as Smart injection combines all of the above, and does something very different in allowing the customer to custom define what he wants to do as a failsafe. A picture is below:
So what makes Smart Injection different? Lets look at the hardware inputs/outputs before we discuss this.
Inputs:
Frequency inputs (2) Can be used for RPM, Frequency based MAF and many off the shelf flow sensors including our upcoming flow sensor.
0-5v inputs (4) Can be used for TPS, MAP, MAF, Air temp, water temp, Wideband AFR, and many off the shelf flow sensors and flow sensors from other water injection companies
EGT input (1). Connect any thermocouple into this to integrate EGT. if you for any reason you need more than 1 EGT input, we have amplifiers that can convert the EGT signal to 0-5V and can be input to any of the 0-5V inputs.
OUTPUTS
0-5V output Any of the signals above can be converted to 0-5V. You can even take a subset of that signal. For example, if you wanted to take a RPM from 2000 to 5250 RPM and convert to a 0-5V you can do that. In addition you can take any 2 inputs and create a 0-5V output based on both settings (by setting up a simple table).
Map clamp. You can clamp the 0-5V output based on any of the output settings (output settings are based on input settings).
5V power (can power any 5V device using less than 1 amp).
5 switchable highspeed ground outputs. You can turn on/off upto 5 different devices based on your inputs.
3 programmable LEDS integrated into the top of the unit. You can make these blink fast, blink slow, go solid or turn off based on any input or output or combination of input/output.
With our product you can integrate any 3rd party sensor as well. For example, if you want to disable your boost if you are out of water, you can simply put a low level float switch and connect to one of the 0-5V inputs (anything past 5 volts gets dumped). Set it up to disable your boost if you are low on water. Thats simple. Lets say now you have a flow sensor hooked up to one of the 0-5V inputs, you can set it up to disable your boost if you are at, below, above any range of flow rates. you can even set it up to switch to an auxillary water injection system incase of problem.
You can integrate your wideband (as long as it as a 0-5V output or pulsed output or millivolt output). Most have a 0-5V output. You can set Smart Injection up to inject more if you are lean or to disable your boost, etc.
In addition, this is also a water/meth injection controller, nitrous controller, its an RPM window switch, boost light, etc.
Sorry about the long post, I just wanted to discuss some key features of our failsafe. We have this available as a stand alone failsafe and as a Kit. The WRX/STI kit is configured to work out of the box, just wire it up. When its ordered as just a failsafe, the customer uses a laptop or desktop to set it up. Once its setup, you dont need to use your laptop unless you want to datalog (8 channel datalogger).
Here is a nice 6 page PDF that we went from start to finish to setup a water/meth injection and failsafe for an electronic boost controller. This was a WRX version, but the same concept. If you were going to use MAF, since EVO is not 0-5V, just use one of the 2 frequency counters to setup your MAF. This shows you a great idea of whats involved in setting of a failsafe with this kit. In this example we inject based on either MAP/MAF and RPM. We could have integrated all 3, but 2 will be suffice. We chose to inject when RPM is above 3500 and MAF/MAP is above 2 volts (on EVO we would use HZ for frequency). In addition, if you are out of water, have a clog, or are not flowing when you should be, the boost controller is disabled. While the abilities of this controller go far beyond what is in this document, it shows you how easy it is to setup a simple kit with it. You dont need to run this as a controller, it can be a failsafe for an existing controller as well.
http://www.coolingmist.net/instructi...xstistage1.pdf
more details on the failsafe here, including a 30 page PDF for advanced users. It includes projects and diagrams.
http://www.coolingmist.com/detailmain.aspx?pid=1099
Last edited by coolingmist; Mar 16, 2008 at 03:37 PM.
May 7, 2008, 03:25 AM
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We have made available any fittings converion for the DDS3v8 flow sensor:
1. 1/8 NPT female
2. 1/8 NPT male.
3. -4AN male
4. 1/4" flexible hose
Or anything else that is not available. We have most fitting conversions on our machines.
See example: flow gauge with -4AN fittings
1. 1/8 NPT female
2. 1/8 NPT male.
3. -4AN male
4. 1/4" flexible hose
Or anything else that is not available. We have most fitting conversions on our machines.
See example: flow gauge with -4AN fittings
We now have push-on 1/4" fitting for the DDS3 flow sensor. It will be supplied with every DDS as from middle of this month.
May 7, 2008, 03:40 AM
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sorry if im out of place or way off topic but anyone using zeitronix as a fail safe???
I have the the feature where it knocks the boost of if certain perimeters are met ex: afr=15+ tps= 95%+ boost=+25= boost cut to wastegate pressure....
I have the the feature where it knocks the boost of if certain perimeters are met ex: afr=15+ tps= 95%+ boost=+25= boost cut to wastegate pressure....
May 7, 2008, 04:17 AM
#83
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Good input to the topic.
Zeithronic is a good secondary, supportive failsafe system should the primary failsafe system (direct flow reading) failed to pick up the flow discrepency.
System runs on 50/50 methanol mix may not easily be picked up by the WB sensor. EGT is not always a direct contribution for WAI flow drop, there are manay factors what that will cause high egt.
For a good water injection system, a direct flow sensing detection system is most important and should be packaged with the system.
Zeithronic is a good secondary, supportive failsafe system should the primary failsafe system (direct flow reading) failed to pick up the flow discrepency.
System runs on 50/50 methanol mix may not easily be picked up by the WB sensor. EGT is not always a direct contribution for WAI flow drop, there are manay factors what that will cause high egt.
For a good water injection system, a direct flow sensing detection system is most important and should be packaged with the system.
May 7, 2008, 05:45 AM
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Good input to the topic.
Zeithronic is a good secondary, supportive failsafe system should the primary failsafe system (direct flow reading) failed to pick up the flow discrepency.
System runs on 50/50 methanol mix may not easily be picked up by the WB sensor. EGT is not always a direct contribution for WAI flow drop, there are manay factors what that will cause high egt.
For a good water injection system, a direct flow sensing detection system is most important and should be packaged with the system.
Zeithronic is a good secondary, supportive failsafe system should the primary failsafe system (direct flow reading) failed to pick up the flow discrepency.
System runs on 50/50 methanol mix may not easily be picked up by the WB sensor. EGT is not always a direct contribution for WAI flow drop, there are manay factors what that will cause high egt.
For a good water injection system, a direct flow sensing detection system is most important and should be packaged with the system.
Having both is the way to go, DDS3 + Zeitronix might just be the best combo ever.
Oct 16, 2008, 10:12 AM
#90
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Everyone must realize that this type of flow meter is a measure of VOLUMETRIC flow rate and is used for reliability and repeatability purposes. It is NOT, i repeat NOT MASS FLOW rate which would be the actual mass of fluid per unit of time.
Do you see that restriction in the middle. it is there so you can measure pressure differential. Mathmatically the differential pressure is a square of fluid velocity. Differential type flow meters need corrections for temperature or pressure changes which I think most if not all systems do not do this.
why dont meth injection company's make a MASS flow meter like the Coriolis method or thermal mass meter.
Do you see that restriction in the middle. it is there so you can measure pressure differential. Mathmatically the differential pressure is a square of fluid velocity. Differential type flow meters need corrections for temperature or pressure changes which I think most if not all systems do not do this.
why dont meth injection company's make a MASS flow meter like the Coriolis method or thermal mass meter.