Dual m10's
Originally Posted by coolingmist
Not Possible.
-the valves give
-blow the nylon head off or
-the santoprene diaphgram burst.
which ever is the weakest link
Originally Posted by SlowCar
shurflos are big/powerful pumps. if its the non-bypass, and the automatic demand switch removed, they will pump and pump till one of the following:
-the valves give
-blow the nylon head off or
-the santoprene diaphgram burst.
which ever is the weakest link
-the valves give
-blow the nylon head off or
-the santoprene diaphgram burst.
which ever is the weakest link
We have tested every single sureflo pump on the market, with by-pass and without. We have tested these with every size nozzle.
The shurflo pumps are very robust. Even when they are run in by-pass mode they will last a long time.
I have been playing with them for over 4yrs now. My first pump I ran in bypass mode and it lasted a complete year before it sprung a leak on the pressure switch seal. $5.00 part and it was good to go again. I would frequently take the pumps apart to inspect and saw no issues at all. I saw no wear or anything except the rubber, and that problem has now been solved for the most part.
They will go a long way, just keep an eye on them like anything else.
I have been playing with them for over 4yrs now. My first pump I ran in bypass mode and it lasted a complete year before it sprung a leak on the pressure switch seal. $5.00 part and it was good to go again. I would frequently take the pumps apart to inspect and saw no issues at all. I saw no wear or anything except the rubber, and that problem has now been solved for the most part.
They will go a long way, just keep an eye on them like anything else.
Originally Posted by coolingmist
No kidding. However there is a maximum flow that they can handle. The larger the nozzle the lower the pressure.
We have tested every single sureflo pump on the market, with by-pass and without. We have tested these with every size nozzle.
We have tested every single sureflo pump on the market, with by-pass and without. We have tested these with every size nozzle.
where y = flow(gph)
and x = pressure(psig)
taking the most extreme case of 3 M15(total 45gph) nozzles and maintaining ~150psig
y=-0.336(150)+101.88; y = 51.48gph
those pumps will maintain high pressure with 3 m15s
Actually prefer injector flow=
known flow rating*SQRT(current pressure/known pressure)
EG, A M10 @ 100 psi is 10 GPH, at 150 is approx 12.24 GPH
10 * SQRT(150/100)=12.24
The max flow rate of the 8000 series pump is 1 GPM. That is at open flow with no restriction. Even the 1.8 GPM model pumps (the larger pumps have only marginal differences when connected to a nozzle).
I have tested them back and forth and can concusively say 3 M15s will not product 150 psi.
A single M15 at 280 PSI like mentioned earlier would mean that a single M5 would be well over 500 psi and this is not the case.
I'm happy for any of you that believe your shurflo pump will make 3 M15s run 150 psi at the same time, but I know different.
known flow rating*SQRT(current pressure/known pressure)
EG, A M10 @ 100 psi is 10 GPH, at 150 is approx 12.24 GPH
10 * SQRT(150/100)=12.24
The max flow rate of the 8000 series pump is 1 GPM. That is at open flow with no restriction. Even the 1.8 GPM model pumps (the larger pumps have only marginal differences when connected to a nozzle).
I have tested them back and forth and can concusively say 3 M15s will not product 150 psi.
A single M15 at 280 PSI like mentioned earlier would mean that a single M5 would be well over 500 psi and this is not the case.
I'm happy for any of you that believe your shurflo pump will make 3 M15s run 150 psi at the same time, but I know different.
That is at open flow. No nozzle. I'm not trying to be a dick. If I was ever wrong I would gladly admit it. Why dont you do a test and video tape it?
Again, I have no issue with you or anyone in this thread, I just know something is not right.
Model
8002-793-238
Description
1.7 GPM open flow, EPDM valves, Santoprene® diaphragm, 100 PSI Demand Switch, 3/8" NPT-Female ports, Nylon Housing
Voltage
12 VDC
PSI
20
40
60
100
BAR
1.4
2.8
4.1
6.9
GPM
1.61
1.45
1.35
1.15
L/min
6.1
5.5
5.1
4.3
Amps
4.4
5.7
7.0
9.3
Again, I have no issue with you or anyone in this thread, I just know something is not right.
Model
8002-793-238
Description
1.7 GPM open flow, EPDM valves, Santoprene® diaphragm, 100 PSI Demand Switch, 3/8" NPT-Female ports, Nylon Housing
Voltage
12 VDC
PSI
20
40
60
100
BAR
1.4
2.8
4.1
6.9
GPM
1.61
1.45
1.35
1.15
L/min
6.1
5.5
5.1
4.3
Amps
4.4
5.7
7.0
9.3
We will have to make this a friendly wager to keep it interesting. 
What will you do if I post a video of 1 M15 connected with a pressure gauge T'd into the system showing 250psi when the pump is powered on?
Also, keep in mind that Shurflo tests their stuff with water, and methanol has a more favorable CentiPoise (cP) and this effects fluid flow. I won't get into it, but I will say if a certain pump/nozzle combo makes 200psi with water, it will show more head pressure with methanol as its 'easier' to pump.
And before the video....a bit of quick math from a 8030-813-239 pump:
Pump equation dervied from Shurflo data sheet (PSI for pressure and GPM for WATER flow)-- y = -0.005375x + 1.6325
M15 nozzle: 40psi delivers .16GPM
M15 @ 40psi = .16GPM
M15 @ 100psi = .25GPM
Those are from the data sheets.
Calculating M15 @ 230psi:
sqrt(230/40) * .16 = .38GPM
So M15 @ 230psi = .38GPM of WATER FLOW
Pump flow at 230psi
y = -0.005375*230 + 1.6325
y = .396 GPM
So the pump flow and nozzle flow intersect at approximately 230psi.
Keep in mind thats with WATER...Methanol is easier to pump (the pump can pump more of it at the same PSI) and it flows easier through the nozzles line (at a given PSI the nozzle can deliver more flow), hence why it showed ~250psi when I tested it.
Thats the math supporting the real world data.
And yes Open Flow is irreleveant as that is with 0psig.
So what happens when my video supports my math?
What will you do if I post a video of 1 M15 connected with a pressure gauge T'd into the system showing 250psi when the pump is powered on?
Also, keep in mind that Shurflo tests their stuff with water, and methanol has a more favorable CentiPoise (cP) and this effects fluid flow. I won't get into it, but I will say if a certain pump/nozzle combo makes 200psi with water, it will show more head pressure with methanol as its 'easier' to pump.
And before the video....a bit of quick math from a 8030-813-239 pump:
Pump equation dervied from Shurflo data sheet (PSI for pressure and GPM for WATER flow)-- y = -0.005375x + 1.6325
M15 nozzle: 40psi delivers .16GPM
M15 @ 40psi = .16GPM
M15 @ 100psi = .25GPM
Those are from the data sheets.
Calculating M15 @ 230psi:
sqrt(230/40) * .16 = .38GPM
So M15 @ 230psi = .38GPM of WATER FLOW
Pump flow at 230psi
y = -0.005375*230 + 1.6325
y = .396 GPM
So the pump flow and nozzle flow intersect at approximately 230psi.
Keep in mind thats with WATER...Methanol is easier to pump (the pump can pump more of it at the same PSI) and it flows easier through the nozzles line (at a given PSI the nozzle can deliver more flow), hence why it showed ~250psi when I tested it.
Thats the math supporting the real world data.
And yes Open Flow is irreleveant as that is with 0psig.
So what happens when my video supports my math?
Last edited by racegate; Dec 1, 2006 at 11:42 AM.
I have tested and have in stock the 8030-813-239 model pump. I will say that we did our testing with 100% water.
Methanol has a different density, so I am sure the #'s will be different.
I think it would be nice for everyone to see the video. Why not post the video with 100% methanol and 100% water so they can see?
I have to say the 100% methanol threw me for a loop because I was basing this on water only. I do not know what the pressure with 100% methanol will be...because we never tested for that.
If you have the time post it. Maybe now we understand where each other is coming from. I dont have 100% methanol laying around the shop at this time (we just moved) so I cant test that, I can test the 100% water very easily (as we have).
I hope that clears things up for both of us.
David
Methanol has a different density, so I am sure the #'s will be different.
I think it would be nice for everyone to see the video. Why not post the video with 100% methanol and 100% water so they can see?
I have to say the 100% methanol threw me for a loop because I was basing this on water only. I do not know what the pressure with 100% methanol will be...because we never tested for that.
If you have the time post it. Maybe now we understand where each other is coming from. I dont have 100% methanol laying around the shop at this time (we just moved) so I cant test that, I can test the 100% water very easily (as we have).
I hope that clears things up for both of us.
David
Originally Posted by racegate
We will have to make this a friendly wager to keep it interesting.
What will you do if I post a video of 1 M15 connected with a pressure gauge T'd into the system showing 250psi when the pump is powered on?
Also, keep in mind that Shurflo tests their stuff with water, and methanol has a more favorable CentiPoise (cP) and this effects fluid flow. I won't get into it, but I will say if a certain pump/nozzle combo makes 200psi with water, it will show more head pressure with methanol as its 'easier' to pump.
And before the video....a bit of quick math from a 8030-813-239 pump:
Pump equation dervied from Shurflo data sheet (PSI for pressure and GPM for WATER flow)-- y = -0.005375x + 1.6325
M15 nozzle: 40psi delivers .16GPM
M15 @ 40psi = .16GPM
M15 @ 100psi = .25GPM
Those are from the data sheets.
Calculating M15 @ 230psi:
sqrt(230/40) * .16 = .38GPM
So M15 @ 230psi = .38GPM of WATER FLOW
Pump flow at 230psi
y = -0.005375*230 + 1.6325
y = .396 GPM
So the pump flow and nozzle flow intersect at approximately 230psi.
Keep in mind thats with WATER...Methanol is easier to pump (the pump can pump more of it at the same PSI) and it flows easier through the nozzles line (at a given PSI the nozzle can deliver more flow), hence why it showed ~250psi when I tested it.
Thats the math supporting the real world data.
And yes Open Flow is irreleveant as that is with 0psig.
So what happens when my video supports my math?
What will you do if I post a video of 1 M15 connected with a pressure gauge T'd into the system showing 250psi when the pump is powered on?
Also, keep in mind that Shurflo tests their stuff with water, and methanol has a more favorable CentiPoise (cP) and this effects fluid flow. I won't get into it, but I will say if a certain pump/nozzle combo makes 200psi with water, it will show more head pressure with methanol as its 'easier' to pump.
And before the video....a bit of quick math from a 8030-813-239 pump:
Pump equation dervied from Shurflo data sheet (PSI for pressure and GPM for WATER flow)-- y = -0.005375x + 1.6325
M15 nozzle: 40psi delivers .16GPM
M15 @ 40psi = .16GPM
M15 @ 100psi = .25GPM
Those are from the data sheets.
Calculating M15 @ 230psi:
sqrt(230/40) * .16 = .38GPM
So M15 @ 230psi = .38GPM of WATER FLOW
Pump flow at 230psi
y = -0.005375*230 + 1.6325
y = .396 GPM
So the pump flow and nozzle flow intersect at approximately 230psi.
Keep in mind thats with WATER...Methanol is easier to pump (the pump can pump more of it at the same PSI) and it flows easier through the nozzles line (at a given PSI the nozzle can deliver more flow), hence why it showed ~250psi when I tested it.
Thats the math supporting the real world data.
And yes Open Flow is irreleveant as that is with 0psig.
So what happens when my video supports my math?
I will try to source a video camera and get some video of it in action. My car is already in the air for a leaky oil return line, so its an opportune time to remove the IC pipe for a video.
And its not the density that effects the fluid flow, its the viscocity. At 25degC Methanol has a cP of .054 while water has a cP of .89. The densities are .79 and 1.00 g/cm^3.
Fluid flow through a pipe is not effected by density, only viscocity as evident by Poiseuille's equation. It tells us that volume flow rate is inversely proportional to viscocity. Density is irrelevant... I.E.
flow fluid rate = (pi/8) * (Radius^4/viscocity) * Pressure gradient
And its not the density that effects the fluid flow, its the viscocity. At 25degC Methanol has a cP of .054 while water has a cP of .89. The densities are .79 and 1.00 g/cm^3.
Fluid flow through a pipe is not effected by density, only viscocity as evident by Poiseuille's equation. It tells us that volume flow rate is inversely proportional to viscocity. Density is irrelevant... I.E.
flow fluid rate = (pi/8) * (Radius^4/viscocity) * Pressure gradient
Last edited by racegate; Dec 1, 2006 at 05:33 PM.
Originally Posted by racegate
I will try to source a video camera and get some video of it in action. My car is already in the air for a leaky oil return line, so its an opportune time to remove the IC pipe for a video.
And its not the density that effects the fluid flow, its the viscocity. At 25degC Methanol has a cP of .054 while water has a cP of .89. The densities are .79 and 1.00 g/cm^3.
Fluid flow through a pipe is not effected by density, only viscocity as evident by Poiseuille's equation. It tells us that volume flow rate is inversely proportional to viscocity. Density is irrelevant... I.E.
flow fluid rate = (pi/8) * (Radius^4/viscocity) * Pressure gradient
And its not the density that effects the fluid flow, its the viscocity. At 25degC Methanol has a cP of .054 while water has a cP of .89. The densities are .79 and 1.00 g/cm^3.
Fluid flow through a pipe is not effected by density, only viscocity as evident by Poiseuille's equation. It tells us that volume flow rate is inversely proportional to viscocity. Density is irrelevant... I.E.
flow fluid rate = (pi/8) * (Radius^4/viscocity) * Pressure gradient
Its easier to understand how much is being injected if you convert the unit volume in cc. That way you can more esily understand how much more fuel you are getting in addition to your injectors.
M15 at 100psi = 15gallons/hour
15gallons =3.78liter x 15=56.7liter=56,700cc per hour.
divide by 60=945cc per minute.
divide by 4= 236cc additional per cylinder.
keep in mind injectors like 560cc will be flowing about 500cc at 90%duty. this means running one m15 jet and 560cc injectors is like running 800-850cc injectors.
M15 at 100psi = 15gallons/hour
15gallons =3.78liter x 15=56.7liter=56,700cc per hour.
divide by 60=945cc per minute.
divide by 4= 236cc additional per cylinder.
keep in mind injectors like 560cc will be flowing about 500cc at 90%duty. this means running one m15 jet and 560cc injectors is like running 800-850cc injectors.