94AWDcoupe

iTrader: (125)

I originally had this idea a few years back. I built a simple system for injecting ethanol that would be as reliable as your factory fuel system. The thread is here https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/wa...injection.html

I installed that kit on a friends car but the kit was taken back off due to lack of funds to complete the tuning of it. It sat on the shelf for years. I have been enjoying the last couple years of the reliability of factory fuel setup.

I ran e85 in the car for seven months. wonderful fuel but highly impractical for a street car. I used a 270 gallon tank in back yard. draw backs are very hard to move a tank that size when full. takes a dually. Nearest refill 71 miles away one way. Had to rely on friends for refill time. 13 gallon tank becomes 9 gallon tank. 100miles per tank were the norm. couldnt leave the house without worrying if there was enough gas for the drive. couldnt drive to my nearest track (61 miles) unless there was extra tank of e85 on board. pretty much a pain really. I drive my car daily. I wont use e85 even if there were three tanks in tampa. its a trap. its not pump gas. its cheap race gas with race gas availability.

Then I switched back to straight gas with 2 oz torco added per gallon. quite practical. but after about a year I developed a headache that just wouldnt go away. I think breathing that stuff is not good for your health. so I stopped using it. Decided to give ethanol injection a serious go.

Ethanol injection or daul injection is the way to go. so many advantages I dont know where to start.
1. reliable components. no failing meth pumps to worry about. Reliable enough you dont need a fail safe. IMHO. 2. consistent fuel mix. you determine ethanol to fuel ratio by injector sizes. 3. double pumper fuel flow but less expensive. retain single in tank. second external pump pumps the ethanol. 4 easy to tune. ethanol injectors follow duty cycle of primary. so you just tune your main injectors like normal. numbers will just look funny cause your main tune of choice does not know the extra fuel is being injected. % can drive anywhere in country and fill like normal. The Eth tank lasts a LONG time between fills. I run a 2.5 gallon tank.

I have only been using it for a couple weeks. Its still very experimental. But even at that I am in love.. Cant believe I waited this long to give it a go. The primary injectors are 880s and the two ethanol injectors are 650s. so fuel per cylinder is approximately 880 fuel/325 ethanol or approximately e35. The eth injectors are running off a simple 18$ hella SSR (solid state relay) designed for 32amp continuous duty. The ethanol injectors come online at 5psi. The transition is seamless. So far my thoughts are it still works too much like methanol injection. as far as fuel delay and after run off goes. the A/F is still gear based. leaner in short gears richer in top gears. Plus what I cant live with is the extra fuel that injects after hard pull. At that point the injectors shut off during coast down. but it is dead rich for about 5-10 seconds. Huge improvement over leaky meth valves that would take ~30 seconds to clear.

I want to solve these issues so my next step is to install the second injectors one per cylinder. I will then make my main injectors smaller for better drivability and smoother idle.. 780s and use inexpensive set of DSM 450. this will give me a little more room to grow power wise. so stay tuned I found a very cool/affordable way of getting second rail on the car.

here is picture of current engine bay and what the kit components looked like.

S13 Curtis

iTrader: (5)

you can do the same exact thing with methanol and make more power so why not???

I was actually going to do the same thing but have a fuel cell for pure methanol to come on with boost.

94AWDcoupe

iTrader: (125)

Methanol is extremely corrosive. Will kill fuel pumps and injectors in a matter of weeks. Just call up Weldon and ask them if they have reliable Meth pump that doesnt need to be pickled. Dont want to spend time discussing meth injection. Used it in many forms for ten years. It simply is not reliable and needs good failsafe.

94AWDcoupe

iTrader: (125)

oh and another thing. for years I had the question whether injecting ethanol could even replace the effective results of injection methanol.

it has now been shown in direct back to back. first tuning meth injection with auquamist kit. 100% meth. then replacing the meth with ethanol and retune. the car made more power and was more detonation freindly using ethanol

Richard L

iTrader: (5)

If you replace ethanol with methanol, you should be able to push your power higher still. I based my assumption on latent heat value. Power production is limited by cylinder temperature and knock resistance of the fuel. Methanol runs cooler. I would try M85 or M95 before declaring ethanol makes more power. This woudl be a more accurate "back to back" comparison.

As regarding injecting methanol inpendently, that will depending on how your set up the aquamist. Direct port will yield more power due to even distribution to the cylinders. You tend to tune to the worse cylinder. Moving from single point to port will have more power potentals.

It is not totally a fair comparison until you are injection 85% methanol to 15% pump fuel.

I will agree with you regarding ease of tune. But if you have an aquamist PWM-valve system, it should be the same because it tracks fuel flow especially if direct port is implemented.

PS Please send me a link to the corrosiveness of methanol compared to ethanol. I thought they are about the same.

S13 Curtis

iTrader: (5)

+1 im tired of people doing a comparasion of e85 to methanol and the meth car they are testing only has 1 nozzel not to many cc's spraying in.

Methanol cools better period!!! E85 is just a cheaper race fuel IMO

94AWDcoupe

iTrader: (125)

I dont really care how much better you guys "think" methanol is. maybe you should write F1 and tell them the cars got slower with switch from methanol to ethanol. I dont want to use it. I used a walbro 255 once submerged in methanol tank. It lasted three weeks. I dont have pics. But if you dont believe me try it for your self. The new style shurflo pumps (auquatec head) are only fairing slightly better than the old ones. they are failing around the one year mark. better than failing around the six months mark. but still pathetic in my opinion.

Richard L

iTrader: (5)

Results are often based on how the "stuff" is used. We can only go by the physical and chemical properties. As I said before, my assumption was based on the latent heat peoperties of each. Other factors such as octane is very similar. Since the power developed by an engine is limited by heat and knock resistance of fuel, I believe methanol has more power producing potential than ethanol.

I could be proven wrong, until someone can perform an controlled test under laboratory environment and prove ethanol makes more power than methanol, I will readily accept it.

As regarding to corrosiveness of methanol. I do some research. 100% methanol in not corrosive at all in room temperature. The corrosive nature stems from the hydroscopic property of methanol. Water will attack aluminium, steel or most metal instantly. I presume the walbro pump has an aluminium case?

Shurflo/aquatec pump internals both share the same elastomer. The elastic properly is enhanced by an additive called plasticizer. Both ethanol or methanol will wash out those chemcials in time resulting in progressive hardening over time. Aquatec has a slightly better clamping outer case seal design than Shurflo. But in time, the diaphragm will take its toll and rob the efficiency of the pump and development of leaks.

So far, three years on, we have not had one report of an aquatec pump leaking, so until then, I remain my faith on the aquatec pump.

94AWDcoupe

iTrader: (125)

just because no one has sent one back in with complaints doesnt mean they arent failing. I know two people who had failures with the aquatech pump last year. and dont know THAT many people using kits. neither made any fuss about it and just bought a new one. this shouldnt be too surprising in the wake of the surflow design lasting 3-6 months before a new one was needed.

mt057

iTrader: (6)

My shurflo pump lasted me one year then started leaking. I used rtv to seal it and did not have another issue with it. I then switched to the aquatec pump with my HFS-3. I have not had a single leak. I only use 100% M1.

Richard L

iTrader: (5)

Practically all wmi companies uses aquatec pumps now.

I agree with you regarding not all people will contacting the manufacturer when a pump fails. I can only compared the periods between shurflo and aquatec. This is how I arrived at the conclusion.

We are the only maker that will not preset the pump to run above 160psi when dead-headed. I am sure you remember a few years ago, all PPS makers boasted their system uses a 250psi pump and one even gone above that. Not any more, most of them has set the dead head pressure to ~200psi.

I have done a great deal of communication with aquatec engineers before we changed over. They told me 180psi is the highest prsssure one would consider for long term reliability. So we decided to set ours at 160 psi. We made not have won the "hype" battle a few years ago, but over time the wise words from aquatec was proven true.

You must be awared the "dynamic range" of all PPS systems rely on pressure change to produce flow range. Sadly, flow range obeys the "square-root" law, 4 times pressure change only doubles the flow. For a PPS system to attain a 100cc to 330cc/min range, the pressure need to be changing between 100psi to 1000psi! From your post, do you know what system has the two aquatec pumps failed?
I don't mind if they were aquamist systems. I like to know.

One other common failure of the pumps, included the aquatec pumps is water ingression. A pump installed outside the trunk area does not last very long. Bearing can fail within days of water intrusion.

Richard L

iTrader: (5)

I agree with you Shurflo pumps. At the time we did not have a choice until Aquatec came along.

The next hurdle we have to overcome is the fittings. Push fit fittings, they too share the same fate as the sealing ring shrinks with high percentage of methanol. Leak develops over time. We have changed our hose fittings to all-metal compression type, so far so good. I hope the rest of the wmi industry will soon follow to stop the unreliable images.

94AWDcoupe

iTrader: (125)

one auqatec pump that failed was a local running aquamist kit. the second I cant confirm what kit was used. I was interested in the reliability of the aquatec pump so I didnt ask what kit it was. This was from shop that has just as much meth knowledge/experience as myself. he had same sentiments I did. the aquatec pump is a nice jump forward. but it is still unreliable design.

factory fuel injectors run at 41psi. at 40psi the pump is at 81psi.
a plastic pump head at 160psi with plastisizer parts dissolving trying to hold the pressure in = somebody please design good pump designed for the job its actually doing.

I realize the pumps cost 50 and you triple your money selling them. its hard to be thrilled seeing it happen.

Richard L

iTrader: (5)

If the shop has contacted us, we would know the cause of failure. It is the case of what failed, bearing or seal. The aquamist system is designed to be trunk mounted, bearing failure is rare. Do you mind asking the shop for me where the pump was mounted.

I do all the technical support for aquamist so tell me who your local shop is.

Your suggestion of a geared micro pump is in the region of $800 a piece and it is not reliable beyond 100psi. If I were to designed a similar pump from scratch for around $3000 a piece, will you be interested in buying one? I will guarantee it for 1000 hours of usage at 160psi.

One bit of useful information for you. Neither methanol or ethanol is corrosive at 100% pure because it does not have free ions flying around to start corrosion. I did some research and noticed the water absorption rate of both alcohol is 50 times that of gasoline. It is banned for use in Marine application.

If you drop your walbro pump into a bucket of 100% pure ethanol in free air, see how long the pump will last. Repeat the same test with a second walbro pump but this time use methanol. Note down the life of pump, then compare the life of an acquatec pump (not immerse in methanol). I think the aquatec pump will last longer than the walbro. You will find the cause of failure is the water content in the alcohol and not the alcohol itself.

94AWDcoupe

iTrader: (125)

UPDATE. Well after a month on the car my tank (2.5g) finally went low. Couldnt be more pleased with the way this setup works. Moving forward this week with converting to port injection. Will be selling my plethora collection of water injection parts. They are simply useless to me at this point. Will never again install anything but duel fuel. Even a simple single injector installed in I/C makes way more sense than a water injection kit.

Sizing up an install. Will be using my shaved manifold. Will have to make new mount location for coil packs. secondary stainless rail is from turbo VW. Primary rail new found composite. Gonna be a little bit of work. But the improvements will be worth the effort.