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Old Jun 27, 2011, 09:56 AM   #1
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Post AEM EMS Response / TPS , Series 1, Series 2 boxes

I have been long-time plagued with issues with the AEM EMS.
I currently am running the Series 1 box with an AEM Steel 3.5Bar map sensor.

There have been a couple professional tuners that have told me that there is no way to get around the throttle response issue that AEM is plagued with, and that the AEM EMS ecu's have problems that cannot be corrected unless a complete overhaul is done. (Series 2 included).

**Update**
I decided to put some of my feelings into this so some people can understand my frustrations with this AEM EMS, this is what I feel, Then I will get into the concerns that I have with my current AEM EMS
Here's a condition that I'd like assistance with that can happen in the wet or dry... and to anyone for that matter during an emergency situation... and the way this AEM EMS is responding, it can get you killed or into an accident. It already has almost gotten me rear ended twice.

Say you take a turn, you fish tail, you are going at a high rate of speed, there is NO time, ZERO time for throttle delay, at this moment you need to be able to put the RPM's where you want them as fast as possible to rev match in the gear you need to deliver the power you need to correct your spin-out by a possible power slide to carve into the turn and away from possible danger. Anyone that has driven aggressively understands what I'm saying here.

I've never been in a car that has had such a delayed response of the throttle. Turbo/SuperCharged/N-A... none.

If I were rally racing... and I approached an e-brake hair pin, I'd clutch down, pull ebrake to initiate slide after appropriate steering input, then nail throttle to raise rpm to rev-match to the next gear and then lift clutch up in a fashion that lays the power to the floor in the way that I demand depending on the turn/camber/angle/terrain... but with my AEM EMS, this is not possible because I'd have to nail the clutch AND the gas at the same time in that extreme time-sensitive situation in order for the gas to interpret my gas pedal movement to say "hey, guess what, he just hit the gas... should we put some fuel in now? or later? what? was that now? oh, ok..." well I want it when I hit the gas pedal, and not later, as I think everyone would.

I'm can be an aggressive driver and when I hit that gas pedal, I want the computer to do something like it used to when I had the OEM ECU, not to chuckle, choke, or make my motor go lean on fuel, or attempt to lower rpm/stall. I know its a turbo car and I know turbo has lag, and I can differentiate the two, but throttle input should not have lag. I heal-toe often, and my inputs to the car are done in a way where they need to be recognized when I do them, not predicted, or delayed.

No stock-ecu Evo I have driven (and I have driven many) has ever had this type of problem. If you feel that the AEM EMS can perform like the OEM ECU in this manner, in these circumstances, then I'd like to be driven in one with such a setup. Or if you are so inclined, I'd like to drive it myself. But I will also say, I'd feel horrible if the truth is that it won't, because then I'd be wasting every one's time. And that, I do not want to do because I know how valuable time is.



Some of the main concerns that I have with "my" current AEM EMS are, but not limited to:

• Throttle response (instant lean AFR reading on throttle input, then slow calculation to regain fuel... which kills response and causes car to "buck" before acceleration or even holding an RPM for cruising)
• Weak idle. (No matter how high I set my idle map to compensate, the vehicle will stall on its own when depressing the clutch, or after a long drive and then finally coming to a slow down. It's as if the idle motor is confused as to when to kick in, and when not to.
• TPS reading not stable. When this reading doesn't read between my 0.3 to 0.9 preferred value, all hell breaks loose. Not only does my idle run richer, but it stalls more frequently, and the response turns to crap.

I have used Browningderek's guide to eliminate AEM's ability to have to "kick on" the idle motor. This way, there is always a static method AEM will attempt to idle the vehicle. It works great for the most part (unless my TPS goes haywire again)
The link can be found here

I have gotten the AEM EMS to run like a stock computer on my car (yet again... as long as the TPS doesn't go haywire) by using the Idle guide above... and the following methods:
I have had my tuner un-do boost compensation. This way, my ECU does not have to over-calculate anything. What's in the fuel map, is in the fuel map, and that's that. The fuel map looks like a pretty dangerous slope to ski down, but it works, and fine tuning each boost level can be done easily. I also completely flattened out the Throttle Injector Correction Table. The only section I'll even consider lowering in the event my idle be too rich... is the 0% throttle value... every thing else remains at 0% fuel added/subtracted. This way, again, less for the ECU to calculate. So therefore, the ECU only deals with the fuel map.
There was no futzing around with the Throttle Fuel map (if you don't know what this is, you're better off) as it is glitched in the AEM EMS... it tends to strap itself to the fuel map for whatever reason.

This is my gripe: When driving the car in a "daily fashion", (4,000RPM shifts between gears from red light to redlight driving... trying to keep up with rush hour traffic) When I clutch down, then change gear, then tip throttle in... and begin to clutch up... In that last step of "tipping throttle in while engaging clutch" is where I have lost many hairs and initiated project gray hair and skin wrinkle.
What is happening is, as soon as I tip in throttle, my AFR is no longer reading anything between 10.0 to 16.0 (just to give you an idea) in fact, it's showing a split second of 21.0 and above. When there is no fuel, there is no response... so what ends up happening is as I engage the clutch... the car is decelerating. Then the clutch engages, and I get a harsh "buck" through my drivetrain as my motor tries to spin the drive train the wrong way because my throttle input/rev-matching/momentum is conflicting.
Anyone with AEM EMS knows what I'm talking about here. The price we are paying for this horse$hit is honestly not worth all the stress. I miss my stock ECU, and couldn't care less for an additional 25-50 ponies.

This is what I did to correct the problem. Maybe correct is a strong word... band-aid? Pacify? The problem is still there.

First off... I checked my AEM Map sensor connection since I found my car would stall if I shook the harness... I found that the 3 pin plug harness was completely corroded inside. I dremeled out the plastic to expose the 3 male pins of the map sensor... shaved them down to clean off all of the green grit. Fluxed them, Soldered solder onto them, and directly soldered wires into the factory evo harness. This corrected a lot of issues to begin with.

Then: I have taken every negative boost load cell above 1500rpm, to about 5500-6000rpm and increased the fuel cells to make my AFR read 9.5-10.0 in those sections. This alone, will solve the problem, however, you will be emitting black clouds of fuel behind you. So what I did to counter that was enabling o2 feedback for the range of 1500-5500/6000rpm, and turn it off above the load I have the fuel set to correctly.

What happens is that the initial fuel map throws that extra fuel that you need for response, and then o2 feedback slowly pulls the fuel away as you drive in order to reach whatever target AFR you have in your o2 feedback map.

Issue with this: o2 feedback on AEM EMS Series 1 is so slow (apparently Series 2 has a faster processor... but I'm not sure it corrected this problem either)... they might as well not even included it as part of the package in my box in my opinion. The correction rate is hideous. If you tamper with the o2 feedback ms rate... what will happen is the car will end up running richer, then leaner than the target. It overdoes itself.
I haven't spent enough time tweaking the feedback rates on o2 feedback, but from what I've seen so far... it won't work as I want it to.

I fully understand that you are supposed to tune your fuel map with o2 feedback completely off first, and then enable it to maybe give you that extra bit of fine tuning or that extra bit of gas mileage for long distance trips... but if tuned that way... I can guarantee you that your throttle response will be horrible.

If anyone has insight as to how to get around this well known issue with any AEM EMS box for the Evo's, (8's and 9's that I'm aware of so far) Feel free to put your two cents in this thread.

If a thread like this exists already, I apologize, and moderators, please feel free to either copy/paste/move or direct me to the right place.

I have heard from other tuners that the TPS's on our cars go bad, and you must get a new OEM one in hopes that it holds the cailbration.

Apparently it's best for it to read 98% throttle when you are floored on the pedal, and 0.5% (or as close as you can get to that) when your throttle isn't touched. Be sure your throttle cable is setup correctly with ZERO pull. A little slack is fine, but don't set it too tight.

I thank everyone in advance for any information and/or any light you can shed on this painful issue that many drivers that are OCD such as myself with tunes are experiencing.

I will be constantly updating this thread with any other insight I may find as time passes since I'm sure many Evo users are using AEM EMS in their vehicles.
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Last edited by MagicManRed; Jul 12, 2011 at 01:57 PM. Reason: Added my feelings. :)
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Old Jun 27, 2011, 10:15 AM   #2
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Can you post up a data log so people can see what is going on. Also if you can post your cal that is win also. It is very hard to help out at all unless we have at least a log file. But really with the issues you are having the cal will be the most help. We would also need a full mods list.

Here are some params that are good

Engine Speed
Engine Load
Throttle
O2 #x
O2 #x FB Value
Injector Duty
Boost Trim Fuel
Fuel Trim AIT
Ign Trim Air Temp
Ign Timing
Knock #x Volts
Knock #x Raw
Knock #x Fuel
Knock #x Retard
Air Temp
Coolant Temp
Battery Volts
Idle Learned Value
Idle Target
Idle Target Error
Idle Position

What shop tuned your evo, mabye you need to have a different tuner look at your car. My car drives awesome. You can download my cal here:http://forum.aempower.com/forum/inde...c,27910.0.html

Then you can compare some of your settings to mine. Also you should post a list of mods. If you are running crappy injectors most of the time there will not be much you can do about it. But it sounds like you just need to tweak a few little things and you might be able to be very happy with your car.

With your o2 feedback did you ever tune it? I have had to make lots of changes to my o2 feedback to make it work well for my car. I have also found that for your car to run really well, the whole cal needs to be pretty dialed in. If you have one hole somewhere it will affect the rest of the map.
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Old Jun 27, 2011, 10:26 AM   #3
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Hey! Thanks for the reply. I went ahead and updated my signature with links to my modifications! All your questions are answered there.

I will get a log up after work tonight. Latest tomorrow! I'll also check out your tune to see some of the accel/decel settings.

-MR
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Old Jun 27, 2011, 12:07 PM   #4
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Old Jun 27, 2011, 12:11 PM   #5
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Is your battery in stock location and are the factory grounds in place and clean? Your map sensor connector is a good find, you get into a situation of garbage in=garbage out with dirty connections. I've had better luck running TPS+ boost comp maps on cars like yours. It may be something you want to look into.

I've been through this before, it's frustrating. I have not had ANY of these issues with the Series 2. I'm going to be near NYC end of July, send me your cal and maybe I can make some time to look at it in person while I'm in town.

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Old Jun 27, 2011, 12:16 PM   #6
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If you setup the accel/decel fuel limits, tables, and map filtering correctly you will have no throttle response issues.

If you're trying to cure accel enrichment problems in your main fuel map you will have nothing but trouble, guaranteed.

Also, not using the boost comp features is just killing your fuel map resolution and will likely make your car run like crap at idle. Turns out your ecu is still running the boost comp calculations even if you null them out, so it's not saving you any processor power to not use it.

Last edited by griceiv; Jun 27, 2011 at 12:22 PM.
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Old Jun 27, 2011, 12:49 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aby@MIL.SPEC View Post
your car should drive like a dream.....even in city traffic.

i dd my 2.3 on e85 with kelford 280 cams without issue. a/c on/off, no problem as well.

pm me your email address & I will send you some logging instructions & template to use for logging onto your pc via f6.
Email sent!

Quote:
Originally Posted by RealStreet View Post
Is your battery in stock location and are the factory grounds in place and clean? Your map sensor connector is a good find, you get into a situation of garbage in=garbage out with dirty connections. I've had better luck running TPS+ boost comp maps on cars like yours. It may be something you want to look into.

I've been through this before, it's frustrating. I have not had ANY of these issues with the Series 2. I'm going to be near NYC end of July, send me your cal and maybe I can make some time to look at it in person while I'm in town.

Jay@realstreetperformance.com
Email sent!

Quote:
Originally Posted by griceiv View Post
If you setup the accel/decel fuel limits, tables, and map filtering correctly you will have no throttle response issues.

If you're trying to cure accel enrichment problems in your main fuel map you will have nothing but trouble, guaranteed.

Also, not using the boost comp features is just killing your fuel map resolution and will likely make your car run like crap at idle. Turns out your ecu is still running the boost comp calculations even if you null them out, so it's not saving you any processor power to not use it.
Thank you.

I know what you mean by map resolution... but for resolution between full negative boost, to 0 boost, there is plenty to tinker with in a no-boost comp fuel map. My tuner did it quite nicely, and I have to say, of all of the maps he has done for me, and all of the on-dyno hours of tuning he's done, my favorite one to drive with is the non-boost comp map for whatever reason. Maybe there are other things that were done in that tune, but the non-boost comp definitely seemed to help. And yes, I'm sure if we sit and play with just the fuel map, the problem wont be solved... I know this personally from years of tinkering and getting no real results! hah!


Thank you for the quick responses guys.

I hope we can figure this out. I would have imagined it were to be more simple instead of every car being so different with throttle sensitivity!
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Last edited by MagicManRed; Jun 27, 2011 at 12:51 PM.
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Old Jun 27, 2011, 03:03 PM   #8
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You have mail!

The maps look good, just a couple things I'd do differently. I'm not saying there is something "wrong" just many ways to get there from here...
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Old Jun 27, 2011, 05:23 PM   #9
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all it took was a post on the forums and you are going to love your ems now. damn do I love the internet some times.
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Old Jun 27, 2011, 07:57 PM   #10
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1st... Don't think it can't be fixed.
2. Raise the Accel DTPS trigger to 20.
3. Set the Accel limit to 100.
4. Put the ECU in open loop.
5. Make sure your DFCO is away from being false triggered.
6. Mind the fact that you're using a 2200cc injector. Current technology or not idling your engine at 15.0 AFR is a thing of the past. Once you get below 1ms things get kinda tight and you need to be accepting of this fact. At some point the injector spends more time closed then open and it's just the way it is.
7. After you have monitored the accel fuel isn't being triggered during steady state you can lower the Accel DTPS while keeping a close eye that the accel fuel isn't being false triggered. You can see this under your parameters screen. Some cars end up at a value of 5, some like SRT neon or fox mustangs use a value of 20... The harness and grounds are not going to be the same from car to car. This is something you will have to watch with the car cold and hot as "noise" will come under different conditions. What you're looking to balance is the Accel DTPS and the Accel TP sensitivity. Get the DTPS as low as it can be and the TP sensitivity as high as it can be without false triggering the accel fueling.
8. Make changes to your fuel map to get some acceptable AFR values under vacuum. Like mentioned above it's no longer a 15.0 AFR program with those big nozzles. I've used them with AEM/Motec/Haltech... After you have the fuel map tuned to some reasonable values.(13.5-14.0) would be a good place to target.

It's a situation that a smaller nozzle would be easier to make it drive well than a large nozzle. But I think with some patience you can fix most of your issues. If you're going to continue to run your car on gasoline I'd go down in injector size.

Let us know how this helps,

Jay Meagher
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Old Jun 27, 2011, 09:46 PM   #11
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I don't think this has been covered specifically , but keep in mind that as the engine warms up the voltage will change. If your min voltage is set too high and it dips down below because of temperature changes, the idle feedback circuitry will shut off and make things really interesting trying to catch steady.
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Old Jun 28, 2011, 07:35 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whoflungpoo View Post
I don't think this has been covered specifically , but keep in mind that as the engine warms up the voltage will change. If your min voltage is set too high and it dips down below because of temperature changes, the idle feedback circuitry will shut off and make things really interesting trying to catch steady.
Agreed, this is why I mentioned checking it hot and cold. My Supra never varies. My WRX has about a 2% swing, but the battery is in the back and I never ran a dedicated ground to the battery. I've done some older mustangs that there was a 10% swing as the car heated up. It's a situation that you have to understand the internals of the AEM are the same part number to part number. So the integrity of the harness and it's connections pay a HUGE role in the quality of the signals going into the EMS and outbound to the devices controlled.

Thanks

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Old Jun 28, 2011, 07:39 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBoz View Post
all it took was a post on the forums and you are going to love your ems now. damn do I love the internet some times.
I REALLY hope so man... Something tells me that the problem is deeper than a tune though but I'm crossing my fingers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RealStreet View Post
1st... Don't think it can't be fixed. (That's a tough one man)
2. Raise the Accel DTPS trigger to 20. (Will try this)
3. Set the Accel limit to 100. (will try this)
4. Put the ECU in open loop. (Not sure what you mean)
5. Make sure your DFCO is away from being false triggered. (Also not sure what you mean)
6. Mind the fact that you're using a 2200cc injector. Current technology or not idling your engine at 15.0 AFR is a thing of the past. Once you get below 1ms things get kinda tight and you need to be accepting of this fact. At some point the injector spends more time closed then open and it's just the way it is. (Totally understand, it doesn't like any AFR other than mid to low 12's. 13 is tough, but doable.)
7. After you have monitored the accel fuel isn't being triggered during steady state you can lower the Accel DTPS while keeping a close eye that the accel fuel isn't being false triggered. You can see this under your parameters screen. Some cars end up at a value of 5, some like SRT neon or fox mustangs use a value of 20... The harness and grounds are not going to be the same from car to car. This is something you will have to watch with the car cold and hot as "noise" will come under different conditions. What you're looking to balance is the Accel DTPS and the Accel TP sensitivity. Get the DTPS as low as it can be and the TP sensitivity as high as it can be without false triggering the accel fueling. (not sure how to look to see if accel fueling is being triggered... I'm starting to understand you though... This accel/decel fuel has never been my thing... I think once I fully understand it, I'll know what the car needs)
8. Make changes to your fuel map to get some acceptable AFR values under vacuum. Like mentioned above it's no longer a 15.0 AFR program with those big nozzles. I've used them with AEM/Motec/Haltech... After you have the fuel map tuned to some reasonable values.(13.5-14.0) would be a good place to target. (I'm with ya on that. getting anything over 14 isn't easy without the car feeling funky)

It's a situation that a smaller nozzle would be easier to make it drive well than a large nozzle. But I think with some patience you can fix most of your issues. If you're going to continue to run your car on gasoline I'd go down in injector size.

Let us know how this helps,

Jay Meagher
My comments are within your quote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whoflungpoo View Post
I don't think this has been covered specifically , but keep in mind that as the engine warms up the voltage will change. If your min voltage is set too high and it dips down below because of temperature changes, the idle feedback circuitry will shut off and make things really interesting trying to catch steady.
That is a good point. It definitely fluctuates and acts very different in the mornings. Maybe my TPS is fine, but I screwed up the values from adjusting it at different temperatures?
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EvoIX OEM Camshafts $35 + sh
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Last edited by MagicManRed; Jun 28, 2011 at 09:01 AM.
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Old Jun 28, 2011, 08:48 AM   #14
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Old Jun 28, 2011, 10:18 AM   #15
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Are you sure you have the correct battery offset for your injectors?

Yours:
2550 1960 1690 1460 1270 1140 970 820 660 580 500

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__________________
2005 Evo 8 RS AEM INFINITY E85 FP3586

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Originally Posted by ForcedPerformance View Post
Fingers count as "foreign objects" and are not covered under your turbo warranty. :)
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Old Jun 28, 2011, 10:18 AM
EvolutionM
Mitsubishi Lancer




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