Buschur made me an Alcoholic !!!!! Dyno results
Jan 29, 2005, 10:41 PM
#1
Account Disabled
Thread Starter
iTrader: (91)
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: 2003 Evo VIII - Silver
Posts: 16,850
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Buschur made me an Alcoholic !!!!! Dyno results
Guys - for the past two weeks since I came back from my trip to Buschur Racing I have been constantly thinking, dreaming and wondering about the alcohol kit and what the potential was.
David and I tuned a BR500 equipped stage 4 while I was down there with the new Alcohol kit and the results simply amazed me and opened my eyes to some major potential which was available using this technology. After we dyno tested a Buschur Stage 2 and made a smooth, knock free 360 tq on pump gas. Needless to say the feeling of power and total complete absese of knock activity really captured my imagination.
I was excited to get a evo onto my own dyno to test this wonderful kit out and see what kind of power would be made and how the kit worked.
Here is a car tested on our AWD Dyno Jet dyno with 25 psi on 93 octane pump gas
This car had 264 cams, intake, Buschur Exhuast and MBC with Walbro pump. Of course Buschur Alcohol kit and a custom tuned Dyno Flash to take advantage of the alcohol injection.
I can tell you that driving this machine was a really enjoyable experience. The low down tq feels more like a gaint V8 mussel car than a 4 cyl import. It was totaly knock free, smoth and the boost really held out high well out to 6,000 rpms right 25 psi.
After my experience - I can say that I am a alcoholic ! Next up - alcohol in my own 667 whp evo. I am very very excited to discover the full potential of alchol and water injection kits. Its a great enhacement for cars running pump gas looking to make race gas numbers on the cheap.
David and I tuned a BR500 equipped stage 4 while I was down there with the new Alcohol kit and the results simply amazed me and opened my eyes to some major potential which was available using this technology. After we dyno tested a Buschur Stage 2 and made a smooth, knock free 360 tq on pump gas. Needless to say the feeling of power and total complete absese of knock activity really captured my imagination.
I was excited to get a evo onto my own dyno to test this wonderful kit out and see what kind of power would be made and how the kit worked.
Here is a car tested on our AWD Dyno Jet dyno with 25 psi on 93 octane pump gas
This car had 264 cams, intake, Buschur Exhuast and MBC with Walbro pump. Of course Buschur Alcohol kit and a custom tuned Dyno Flash to take advantage of the alcohol injection.
I can tell you that driving this machine was a really enjoyable experience. The low down tq feels more like a gaint V8 mussel car than a 4 cyl import. It was totaly knock free, smoth and the boost really held out high well out to 6,000 rpms right 25 psi.
After my experience - I can say that I am a alcoholic ! Next up - alcohol in my own 667 whp evo. I am very very excited to discover the full potential of alchol and water injection kits. Its a great enhacement for cars running pump gas looking to make race gas numbers on the cheap.
Last edited by DynoFlash; Jan 30, 2005 at 08:35 AM.
Jan 30, 2005, 05:27 AM
#5
Confused about approach to AFR with alcohol
The AFR on this pull looks much more aggressive than what Dave Buschur was suggesting in the "Best Evo Power Mod of 2005" thread:
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1567207&postcount=43
Here's the important part:
Dave was saying that the approach is to tune the car so that the AFRs are allowed to go rich (they seem to richen almost 2 points on alcohol -- that is, from, say, 11:8 to 10.0:1) when the alcohol is injected so that there is the benefit of being able to run more boost/timing, but the mixture isn't leaned out because that would create a much more dangerous condition if the alcohol injection failed for some reason. In Dave's post of the Stage 2 alcohol injection plot, it looks like the AFRs were in the low 10s on the alcohol and in the mid 11s when the alcohol was off.
In your most recent alcohol dyno pull (the one at the top of this thread), the power level is much more impressive, but the AFRs are ~12:1 from 3500 to 4000 and in the mid 11s up to 5000 or so on the alcohol. So, if the alcohol were to malfunction, then AFRs would spike into the 13:1 range under full boost on 93 (yikes). This doesn't sound like the tuning approach that Dave Buschur was suggesting where you tune so that the motor still lives if the system fails. This looks like perhaps a conservative tune for an alcohol tune, but not conservative enough to protect the motor in the event of an alcohol system failure -- that is, it looks like the factory knock retard probably wouldn't save the day on this car.
Am I right that this is a different tuning approach than what Dave was proposing before? Did this customer ask for a more aggressive approach?
Am I misunderstanding anything?
Thanks for your continuing contributions on the board.
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1567207&postcount=43
Here's the important part:
Originally Posted by davidbuschur
This is a dyno graph showing the BR Stg 2 on and off alcohol injection. As you can see the #200 pull was done with AFR's in the 11.8:1 range at its leanest point [without the alcohol].
The #204 pull was done [on the alcohol] with the AFR's off the charts and richer than 10.9:1. The difference in AFR's should have made the power of the car just completely die. With the alky though you get the extra cooling benefit and the boost in octane. This in turn keeps the timing up.
I was pretty amazed at this and it was proof to me that the tuning I have been doing on alky injection on the street was right on the money. Leave the AFR's rich, add timing and boost.
We did a few more pulls after this, we were able to raise the boost so it spiked to 25 psi (94 octane and alky) and settled down to 21.5. The power rose to 345 hp and 360 ft lbs of torque.
...
As a side note, we ran the car with this same spike to 25 psi and settling to 21.5 psi WITHOUT the alky after we did the tuning just to see what happened and the great thing was, NOTHING happened. Al and I wanted to develop a flash that if something happened to the alky the engine would still live. The engine did live as the factory knock control took over and just retarded the hell out of the timing.
The #204 pull was done [on the alcohol] with the AFR's off the charts and richer than 10.9:1. The difference in AFR's should have made the power of the car just completely die. With the alky though you get the extra cooling benefit and the boost in octane. This in turn keeps the timing up.
I was pretty amazed at this and it was proof to me that the tuning I have been doing on alky injection on the street was right on the money. Leave the AFR's rich, add timing and boost.
We did a few more pulls after this, we were able to raise the boost so it spiked to 25 psi (94 octane and alky) and settled down to 21.5. The power rose to 345 hp and 360 ft lbs of torque.
...
As a side note, we ran the car with this same spike to 25 psi and settling to 21.5 psi WITHOUT the alky after we did the tuning just to see what happened and the great thing was, NOTHING happened. Al and I wanted to develop a flash that if something happened to the alky the engine would still live. The engine did live as the factory knock control took over and just retarded the hell out of the timing.
In your most recent alcohol dyno pull (the one at the top of this thread), the power level is much more impressive, but the AFRs are ~12:1 from 3500 to 4000 and in the mid 11s up to 5000 or so on the alcohol. So, if the alcohol were to malfunction, then AFRs would spike into the 13:1 range under full boost on 93 (yikes). This doesn't sound like the tuning approach that Dave Buschur was suggesting where you tune so that the motor still lives if the system fails. This looks like perhaps a conservative tune for an alcohol tune, but not conservative enough to protect the motor in the event of an alcohol system failure -- that is, it looks like the factory knock retard probably wouldn't save the day on this car.
Am I right that this is a different tuning approach than what Dave was proposing before? Did this customer ask for a more aggressive approach?
Am I misunderstanding anything?
Thanks for your continuing contributions on the board.
Last edited by EVO8LTW; Jan 30, 2005 at 06:08 AM.
Jan 30, 2005, 08:44 AM
#6
One other question: Is the timing that the ECU runs with the alcohol reflash suitable for running low boost (18-19 psi) WOT with no alcohol? Does tuning for the alcohol compromise how well you can tune for "off-alcohol" WOT? I'm guessing that you can't tune timing vs. boost with the stock ECU, but I honestly don't know. Thx.
Jan 30, 2005, 08:48 AM
#7
Account Disabled
Thread Starter
iTrader: (91)
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: 2003 Evo VIII - Silver
Posts: 16,850
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by EVO8LTW
The AFR on this pull looks much more aggressive than what Dave Buschur was suggesting in the "Best Evo Power Mod of 2005" thread:
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1567207&postcount=43
Here's the important part:
Dave was saying that the approach is to tune the car so that the AFRs are allowed to go rich (they seem to richen almost 2 points on alcohol -- that is, from, say, 11:8 to 10.0:1) when the alcohol is injected so that there is the benefit of being able to run more boost/timing, but the mixture isn't leaned out because that would create a much more dangerous condition if the alcohol injection failed for some reason. In Dave's post of the Stage 2 alcohol injection plot, it looks like the AFRs were in the low 10s on the alcohol and in the mid 11s when the alcohol was off.
In your most recent alcohol dyno pull (the one at the top of this thread), the power level is much more impressive, but the AFRs are ~12:1 from 3500 to 4000 and in the mid 11s up to 5000 or so on the alcohol. So, if the alcohol were to malfunction, then AFRs would spike into the 13:1 range under full boost on 93 (yikes). This doesn't sound like the tuning approach that Dave Buschur was suggesting where you tune so that the motor still lives if the system fails. This looks like perhaps a conservative tune for an alcohol tune, but not conservative enough to protect the motor in the event of an alcohol system failure -- that is, it looks like the factory knock retard probably wouldn't save the day on this car.
Am I right that this is a different tuning approach than what Dave was proposing before? Did this customer ask for a more aggressive approach?
Am I misunderstanding anything?
Thanks for your continuing contributions on the board.
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1567207&postcount=43
Here's the important part:
Dave was saying that the approach is to tune the car so that the AFRs are allowed to go rich (they seem to richen almost 2 points on alcohol -- that is, from, say, 11:8 to 10.0:1) when the alcohol is injected so that there is the benefit of being able to run more boost/timing, but the mixture isn't leaned out because that would create a much more dangerous condition if the alcohol injection failed for some reason. In Dave's post of the Stage 2 alcohol injection plot, it looks like the AFRs were in the low 10s on the alcohol and in the mid 11s when the alcohol was off.
In your most recent alcohol dyno pull (the one at the top of this thread), the power level is much more impressive, but the AFRs are ~12:1 from 3500 to 4000 and in the mid 11s up to 5000 or so on the alcohol. So, if the alcohol were to malfunction, then AFRs would spike into the 13:1 range under full boost on 93 (yikes). This doesn't sound like the tuning approach that Dave Buschur was suggesting where you tune so that the motor still lives if the system fails. This looks like perhaps a conservative tune for an alcohol tune, but not conservative enough to protect the motor in the event of an alcohol system failure -- that is, it looks like the factory knock retard probably wouldn't save the day on this car.
Am I right that this is a different tuning approach than what Dave was proposing before? Did this customer ask for a more aggressive approach?
Am I misunderstanding anything?
Thanks for your continuing contributions on the board.
Also, I think many of the differences you are seeing on the a/f side when comparing to the Buschur dyno sheet are based upon the different sampling methods used. Buschur threads a 02 sesnor directly into the down pipe on his dyno for the most accurate reading while the Pruven dyno uses a tail pipe sniffer.
As for timing, amazingly I am ONLY running ONE degree more timing on this tune that in some through the mail dyno flashes we send out for pump gas.
I am very confident that a failure of the alcohol system would prob only result in the stock ecu pulling a few degrees of ignition timing.
I will continue to set up all tunes for the alcohol as Dave Buschur has suggested - safe enough that they will run without alcohol.
Keep in mind that this tune was still very conservative and there was a LOT of power left on the table here.
Trending Topics
Jan 30, 2005, 08:54 AM
#8
Account Disabled
Thread Starter
iTrader: (91)
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: 2003 Evo VIII - Silver
Posts: 16,850
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by EVO8LTW
One other question: Is the timing that the ECU runs with the alcohol reflash suitable for running low boost (18-19 psi) WOT with no alcohol? Does tuning for the alcohol compromise how well you can tune for "off-alcohol" WOT? I'm guessing that you can't tune timing vs. boost with the stock ECU, but I honestly don't know. Thx.
Also - I could just leave pump gas timing numbers in the car and you would only loose about 10 - 15 whp.
In fact - we did this testing on this particular car yesterday.
With the BASE exede and tuen by another tuner he made 320 whp.
With the base Dyno Flash through the mail tune installed he made 321 whp. 20 psi
Just turning ON the Alcohol and turning UP the boost to 25 psi raised teh power level to 359 whp - WITH THE SAME EXACT TUNE.
Making slight a/f adjustments and adding one degree of ignition timing produced the 372 whp sheet I posted above.
Then I added one more degree of timing and did not see significant gains so I backed it back to one degree over the base TTM Dyno Flash for 94 octane.
Tuning with Alcohol is really very - very simple indeed as there is a total absense of any knock activity what so ever.
Jan 30, 2005, 08:29 PM
#10
Evolving Member
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 119
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by slushfund
Newbee question?
E85 is very common in Minnesota. Is that the alcohol you are using in this system?
E85 is very common in Minnesota. Is that the alcohol you are using in this system?
Jan 30, 2005, 10:09 PM
#12
Account Disabled
iTrader: (546)
Join Date: May 2003
Location: driving the 10 second beast in ohio or running lightmods.net
Posts: 3,876
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
nice...Al i may be seelling the evo and getting another and going a different approach. Either way with this evo or a new 05 i am thinking of using the injection and dynoflash with the ecu i got in my garage.
Jan 31, 2005, 03:11 AM
#13
Evolved Member
iTrader: (21)
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: MI
Posts: 1,090
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by mndeerslayer
Nope. E85 is 85% Ethanol/15% regular gasoline. The system Al used had 100% methanol, although you can dilute with water for flammability safety.
Actually it is 100% denatured alcohol we use in the kit, not methanol. DA is a 90/10 or close to it mix of ethanol and enough methanol added to make it non drinkable. You can use methanol, it is about 1/5 the price of denatured alky but much more corrosive. It will kill the pump much quicker then DA, Dave did say at some point they might have an all stainless steel pump out then methanol might be a better choice.
I have had the system in my car for over 2 weeks and even with the testing have only gone through .75 gallons.
Last edited by 4ringturncoat; Jan 31, 2005 at 03:18 AM.
), but I wonder at what rpm the turbo is spinning to keep 25psi in the engine? It can't last long spinning that hard.
Jan 31, 2005, 07:30 AM
#15
Evolved Member
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Central NJ
Posts: 733
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well from what we have read over and over again the kit has been used for many years, and knowing that people like David Buschur came out with the kit makes me less worried. We will try to test the car with less boost and with either only water or Winshield wiper fluid for safety reasons i guess. I also think that i am am one of the first ones to do it on the evo and i am sorta like a TEST car so i guess i am doing the EVO community a bit of GOOD here loll well see i wanted more power and this sure is an easy way if it wasnt safe trust me i wouldnt go this direction, the car is knock free and it feels like stock and its not like i drive with the alky on at all times this gallon of alcohol is going to last me month at a time i bet. Ill keep everyone posted with the progress of this alcohol injection kit and my car