Blew up with AEM? Anyone else.......
Originally Posted by metaphysical
I don't want to be brought into this and I hope your not refering to me, because I have never been tuned for racegas and I use NGKBPR7ES plugs and I don't change the boost from what the tuner set it at.
And PLEASE don't insinuate that it's a good idea to tune without a AIT sensor or knock control. I called around 8 tuners after I destroyed my motor and not one of them recommended either situation.
Also, for those of you who get dyno tuned, especially on one of these cool winter mornings. How much stress are you going to put on an engine? If your tuner turns up the boost and ignition timing and then ramps it down once he see's knock after a dyno pull, what do you think the consequences are if you know how to drive and heatsoak your intercooler? Your AIT sensor is after intercooler for a reason.
And PLEASE don't insinuate that it's a good idea to tune without a AIT sensor or knock control. I called around 8 tuners after I destroyed my motor and not one of them recommended either situation.
Also, for those of you who get dyno tuned, especially on one of these cool winter mornings. How much stress are you going to put on an engine? If your tuner turns up the boost and ignition timing and then ramps it down once he see's knock after a dyno pull, what do you think the consequences are if you know how to drive and heatsoak your intercooler? Your AIT sensor is after intercooler for a reason.
Mark
turbotrix
I haven't been to the track (had to cancel 2 events) since I blew the engine and autocrossing is hardly as rigorous as road/racing. With an average driver there probably isn't a huge difference, but with a high-caliber driver (not me) there is a huge difference, your essentially going WOT for a half hour.
My tune right now is very conservative, but it's better to be conservative and have an engine.
My tune right now is very conservative, but it's better to be conservative and have an engine.
Originally Posted by metaphysical
I haven't been to the track (had to cancel 2 events) since I blew the engine and autocrossing is hardly as rigorous as road/racing. With an average driver there probably isn't a huge difference, but with a high-caliber driver (not me) there is a huge difference, your essentially going WOT for a half hour.
My tune right now is very conservative, but it's better to be conservative and have an engine.
My tune right now is very conservative, but it's better to be conservative and have an engine.
Yes i hear the evo's do very well at road events. I'll be attending the one being put on by KK in cali next week. Maybe i can get mark to log AIT on the course. I do know you beat the hell out of the car for 1/2 hr sessions though. Brakes and tires take a beating. I'll let you know what i find out
Mark
Turbotrix
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From: MIDDLEBURG HTS. OHIO
Originally Posted by TurbotrixRacing
I was not going to post in this forum but you know what ,,, here i am. I Tuned ricks car back in May of this yr. Ricks car was making over 400 hp on pump gas on the stock motor. There are two sides to any story, and there is a cause and effect for what happend. Rick is by no means easy on his car and how he drives. Maybe rick has since gone somewhere to tune his car from may but as of this point i'll assume he's talking about me. I've reviewed both ricks calibration file and log files and found absolutely nothing wrong with them. He was running 4 degrees of timing at peak boost and 11.5 by 7k. I did not just tune this car last week , something happend other then " i blew up his car ". His log files show less then 1 volt of knock accross the board. Of course he took it somewhere and they told him right away it was his " timing and fuel maps " i believe. His fuel was dialed in at 11.2 afr , and i have his dyno sheets. This is the first im hearing of this happening and was not contacted by rick about this.
People are always quick to blame anything that happens on the tuner or whoever worked on his or her car. Fact of the matter is , when you look at the facts in every case something happend to cause the failure. In one case the customer altered his ignition map , resulting in engine failure. In another case the person was tuned for pump / race, went to the road course after 6 events , had no race gas and just ran pump, with stock heat range plugs.
When you are making over 400 hp on pump gas , with stock evo pistons, all it takes is a bad tank or get a boost spike and you will have a pre-ignition condition. This will crack the corner of the pistons as i suspect rick did. Mitsubishi designed the evo piston top ring lan very small. Much smaller then its predicessor the 4G63 Talon piston. Why , i have no idea. It is a much weaker piston.
Pre ignition detonation is a condition caused by an uncontrolled fuel burn in the chanber, effectively bringing the burn to an end before the piston has completed it's compression stroke. No longer is the fuel burned, it is an uncontrolled explosion.It is extrmely destructive, temps can reach 18000 deg F, and the resultant pressure reaches several thousand psi. This can destroy ring lands. In order for a knock sensor to pull timing it has to see knock. This would happen after the pre-ignition or detonation. IE the damage was done. At 6000 rpm if you get 1 second of detonation you have 100 of these pressure strikes on top of the piston, this all can happen verey quickly.If you run the car low on gas, have a bad tank, or perhaps you have set the boost a bit high, calamity can strike. While some evo tuners will say they turn the knock control on, they effectively cut it's effectiveness by only allowing it to remvoe a single degree per volt
Show me an evo that varies 10 degrees of AIT, there is no change on the evo. Cold starts and settings can be setup through coolant temp sensor.
I've ems tuned about 200 evo's and lord knows how many other cars, from a 10.5 twin turbo pump gas tuned nsx to pro fwd cars to 1000 whp supras. I def have an solid understanding of how it works and know how to tune. There is always a reason for something to happen, the car was setup right and i'll challenge anyone who says otherwise. I have both ricks log file and calibration file for anyone who wishes to see it.
I know rick has been around for a long time in the dsm community, but owning an ems box is very diff from a vpc / afc. A great way to see how your car is behaving / running is monitoring your spark plugs. If anyone is going to make the move to get a stand alone system, get to know it. Get to know your car, check your plugs from time to time. See the burn on them, check for detonation, learn how to read signs. Plugs are the lifeline to your car and how it runs, knowing and reading plugs you will learn alot.
I have had plenty of customer cars that come in here blown up from other shops. These were all swept under the rug as they say. I chose not to bad mouth rick or anyone else in this thread. I have always gotten along with rick and thought we were friends. I would of thought if he had a problem with me or how he thought i tuned his car that he contact me directly but i see he chose a diff path. If im not the person who he is talking about , i apologize for the above. I did try my best to please rick with his tune, from reading on the boards and the amount of tickets he got, it def looks like he had fun up until now.
Sorry for the long exhausting thread and happy thanksgiving.
Mark
Turbotrix
People are always quick to blame anything that happens on the tuner or whoever worked on his or her car. Fact of the matter is , when you look at the facts in every case something happend to cause the failure. In one case the customer altered his ignition map , resulting in engine failure. In another case the person was tuned for pump / race, went to the road course after 6 events , had no race gas and just ran pump, with stock heat range plugs.
When you are making over 400 hp on pump gas , with stock evo pistons, all it takes is a bad tank or get a boost spike and you will have a pre-ignition condition. This will crack the corner of the pistons as i suspect rick did. Mitsubishi designed the evo piston top ring lan very small. Much smaller then its predicessor the 4G63 Talon piston. Why , i have no idea. It is a much weaker piston.
Pre ignition detonation is a condition caused by an uncontrolled fuel burn in the chanber, effectively bringing the burn to an end before the piston has completed it's compression stroke. No longer is the fuel burned, it is an uncontrolled explosion.It is extrmely destructive, temps can reach 18000 deg F, and the resultant pressure reaches several thousand psi. This can destroy ring lands. In order for a knock sensor to pull timing it has to see knock. This would happen after the pre-ignition or detonation. IE the damage was done. At 6000 rpm if you get 1 second of detonation you have 100 of these pressure strikes on top of the piston, this all can happen verey quickly.If you run the car low on gas, have a bad tank, or perhaps you have set the boost a bit high, calamity can strike. While some evo tuners will say they turn the knock control on, they effectively cut it's effectiveness by only allowing it to remvoe a single degree per volt
Show me an evo that varies 10 degrees of AIT, there is no change on the evo. Cold starts and settings can be setup through coolant temp sensor.
I've ems tuned about 200 evo's and lord knows how many other cars, from a 10.5 twin turbo pump gas tuned nsx to pro fwd cars to 1000 whp supras. I def have an solid understanding of how it works and know how to tune. There is always a reason for something to happen, the car was setup right and i'll challenge anyone who says otherwise. I have both ricks log file and calibration file for anyone who wishes to see it.
I know rick has been around for a long time in the dsm community, but owning an ems box is very diff from a vpc / afc. A great way to see how your car is behaving / running is monitoring your spark plugs. If anyone is going to make the move to get a stand alone system, get to know it. Get to know your car, check your plugs from time to time. See the burn on them, check for detonation, learn how to read signs. Plugs are the lifeline to your car and how it runs, knowing and reading plugs you will learn alot.
I have had plenty of customer cars that come in here blown up from other shops. These were all swept under the rug as they say. I chose not to bad mouth rick or anyone else in this thread. I have always gotten along with rick and thought we were friends. I would of thought if he had a problem with me or how he thought i tuned his car that he contact me directly but i see he chose a diff path. If im not the person who he is talking about , i apologize for the above. I did try my best to please rick with his tune, from reading on the boards and the amount of tickets he got, it def looks like he had fun up until now.
Sorry for the long exhausting thread and happy thanksgiving.
Mark
Turbotrix
So case in point here.........let me pull the cat out of the bag because this is the way I am take it or leave it. Mark has responded to this post and is questioning my friendship with him. Dude, you know me enough to know that I am a man of my word and when I gave my word to not mention any names or shops that was the deal.........But here guys to all you gossip queens out there that love the drama:
Yes Mark at Turbotrix tuned my car back in May, and yes I made 400 whp on a BR500 turbo, 272's, 3" full exhaust, 680's, walbro, adjustable fuel psi regulator, ACT, fidanza flywheel, greddy fmic, 2.5" piping, tial bov etc, etc,etc.
Yes the car did not have a AIT sensor installed, I did not know at the time the significant importance of having one.
Yes I was not aware of the knock control, I said to Mark on several occasions "Dude, this freakin screen looks like the Matrix to me, I'm lost" he can attest to that.........I knew absolutely **** about the AEM and how to tune it.
Yes Mark I was super happy with how the car felt, drove, made power, hell you know we made 440 to the mother freakin wheels on just a race/pump mix at just 21 psi of boost
Yes, I've been around the DSM scene for a LONG TIME fellas and to those that know the 4BANGR "HELL YEAH I DRIVE IT REAL REAL REAL HARD", that is the purpose of me building it that way. HELL NO I'm not easy on my car, if that were the case I'd be driving my wifes Suzuki Aerio
None of this I will deny, and never would. My car blew to crap on pump gas and I wanted to know what exactly caused it, no shi+......wouldn't you?
Yes, I checked my plugs on a regular basis, yes I lowered my boost down to 19 psi once it started getting cold out, and yes I knew I needed to get it checked and retuned real soon. I was still enjoying the crap out of the car, handing plenty of people their asses on the road, and letting them know what the 4BANGR was all about.........no problem.
I never once said MARK at Turbotrix blew my motor, Mark never drove my car, Mark has not seen my car in months. I blew my motor and I wanted to know wtf happened?
I showed my maps to David Buschur because I know David would not feed me any BS about what he saw good or bad, thats the way he is and that is what I wanted. HIS honest opinion, and thats what I got. He sat there and explained to me the maps, the way the whole aem works, what features could have prevented the detonation to grenade the motor. He told me I was nuts to not have an AIT sensor installed and basically said is WTF happened.
I took it like a man, bit the bullet.........Was I pissed? HELL YEAH, should Mark have told me install an AIT and check off that knock control box? Probably, yeah....
But guess what? I pound the shi+ out of my car, did I know exactly what was going on at the exact time of detonation to blow up? NOOOOOOOOO........hell, that is the risk u take when you are driving a 440whp car around on a daily basis.
I am not here to put the blame on Mark for blowing up my motor months after he tuned it, when I have been driving this car on a daily basis 400 miles a week with a huge smile on my face everytime I get the look from other people of " What the hell u got in that monster?"
I chose to take it to the Buschurs because I wanted to build my car into the 10's, and was going with a different turbo setup, sheet metal intake, strictly Buschur parts and he had just come out with his new water injection kit. I want him and only him to tune my car and had my trip out there planned for a while........Guess what? I blew up 3 weeks before my trip and have been pissed ever since. I did not post anything about it for weeks, I was not putting the blame on anyone, mentioning any names. I just wanted answers and David Buschur gave them to me........
The choice is mine on how I wanted to go about it. I did not call Mark because I dont think that will accomplish anything. What is he going to say? "You've been driving the car for months, blow up and want to point the finger at me?'
I'm not like that, Mark u know that Dude, I wanted to know if anyone else blew up on an AEM and got my answers from others who were not just tuned by you, there are others out there with tunes from other people, so whatever people say f- it.
I'm going to build my car again, yeah I'm pissed, but Dude I'm not going to put the blame on anyone because that is not going to get my car fixed, could you have done a few things differently? maybe I dunno..........I'm not one to badmouth anyone so lets just leave this as it stands. Let the gossip queens roar away..........water under the bridge
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From: MIDDLEBURG HTS. OHIO
Originally Posted by metaphysical
The funny thing about this is I would bet Al, David, Mark, Rick and myself could all sit and watch football and have no problem with each other.
Dude we are, I have been around this hobby for a long time, with so many projects under my belt to hold a grudge on anyone, and Mark has helped me out quite a few times. So maybe JD, Al, Mark, the Buschurs and I should go out for a few cold ones, but bring a few pair of boxing gloves along........just in case
But let me warn u tough guys........I'm a kick boxer, I kick below the belt 
Last edited by DA-4BANGA; Nov 25, 2004 at 06:57 PM.
I'd like to hear how the various tuners who deal with the AEM EMS feel about using ALL of the "safety net" features that are available with the unit. Knock sensing is only one of several available.
Here are a few as I understand them:
1.) Knock control (assuming you haven't hobbled it by reducing the amount of timing it can pull and fuel it can dump as well as having built an effective knock calibration table for a specific car)
2.) Boost Fuel Correct (protect against boost spikes)
3.) Warm up Enrichment (dump fuel in case of overheat condition)
4.) Coolant Ignition Retard (pull timing in the event of an overheat condition)
5.) Air Temp Ignition Correction (pull timing in the event of hot intake temps. sure, the Evo may have consistant intake temps, so why not use this feature to protect the motor just in case?)
6.) EGT Fuel Trim (dump fuel in a run lean condition)
Are there others? I can't see taking to the track, any track, road course or strip without having at least the first five trims in place. The factory ECU uses them. Yeah, sure, the car will probably s.hit the bed in terms of performance when these systems kick in, but I'll take that over a grenaded motor any day. A road course is especially brutal on a motor and a true test of it's tuning. It's like roaring up and down a drag strip for 20 to 30 minutes non-stop. You better have your crap straight before you hit the track. <fingers crossed>I haven't had an issue with my Dynoflash-ed ECU over the course of six track days.
Let me add that I'd like to replicate that success with a carefully planned EMS tune.</fingers crossed>
Here are a few as I understand them:
1.) Knock control (assuming you haven't hobbled it by reducing the amount of timing it can pull and fuel it can dump as well as having built an effective knock calibration table for a specific car)
2.) Boost Fuel Correct (protect against boost spikes)
3.) Warm up Enrichment (dump fuel in case of overheat condition)
4.) Coolant Ignition Retard (pull timing in the event of an overheat condition)
5.) Air Temp Ignition Correction (pull timing in the event of hot intake temps. sure, the Evo may have consistant intake temps, so why not use this feature to protect the motor just in case?)
6.) EGT Fuel Trim (dump fuel in a run lean condition)
Are there others? I can't see taking to the track, any track, road course or strip without having at least the first five trims in place. The factory ECU uses them. Yeah, sure, the car will probably s.hit the bed in terms of performance when these systems kick in, but I'll take that over a grenaded motor any day. A road course is especially brutal on a motor and a true test of it's tuning. It's like roaring up and down a drag strip for 20 to 30 minutes non-stop. You better have your crap straight before you hit the track. <fingers crossed>I haven't had an issue with my Dynoflash-ed ECU over the course of six track days.
Let me add that I'd like to replicate that success with a carefully planned EMS tune.</fingers crossed>
Last edited by propellerhead; Nov 25, 2004 at 07:12 PM.
Originally Posted by propellerhead
I'd like to hear how the various tuners who deal with the AEM EMS feel about using ALL of the "safety net" features that are available with the unit. Knock sensing is only one of several available.
Here are a few as I understand them:
1.) Knock control (assuming you haven't hobbled it by reducing the amount of timing it can pull and fuel it can dump as well as having built an effective knock calibration table for a specific car)
2.) Boost Fuel Correct (protect against boost spikes)
3.) Warm up Enrichment (dump fuel in case of overheat condition)
4.) Coolant Ignition Retard (pull timing in the event of an overheat condition)
5.) Air Temp Ignition Correction (pull timing in the event of hot intake temps. sure, the Evo may have consistant intake temps, so why not use this feature to protect the motor just in case?)
6.) EGT Fuel Trim (dump fuel in a run lean condition)
Are there others? I can't see taking to the track, any track, road course or strip without having at least the first five trims in place. The factory ECU uses them. Yeah, sure, the car will probably s.hit the bed in terms of performance when these systems kick in, but I'll take that over a grenaded motor any day. A road course is especially brutal on a motor and a true test of it's tuning. It's like roaring up and down a drag strip for 20 to 30 minutes non-stop. You better have your crap straight before you hit the track. <fingers crossed>I haven't had an issue with my Dynoflash-ed ECU over the course of six track days. Let me add that I'd like to replicate that success with a carefully planned EMS tune.</fingers crossed>
Here are a few as I understand them:
1.) Knock control (assuming you haven't hobbled it by reducing the amount of timing it can pull and fuel it can dump as well as having built an effective knock calibration table for a specific car)
2.) Boost Fuel Correct (protect against boost spikes)
3.) Warm up Enrichment (dump fuel in case of overheat condition)
4.) Coolant Ignition Retard (pull timing in the event of an overheat condition)
5.) Air Temp Ignition Correction (pull timing in the event of hot intake temps. sure, the Evo may have consistant intake temps, so why not use this feature to protect the motor just in case?)
6.) EGT Fuel Trim (dump fuel in a run lean condition)
Are there others? I can't see taking to the track, any track, road course or strip without having at least the first five trims in place. The factory ECU uses them. Yeah, sure, the car will probably s.hit the bed in terms of performance when these systems kick in, but I'll take that over a grenaded motor any day. A road course is especially brutal on a motor and a true test of it's tuning. It's like roaring up and down a drag strip for 20 to 30 minutes non-stop. You better have your crap straight before you hit the track. <fingers crossed>I haven't had an issue with my Dynoflash-ed ECU over the course of six track days.
Let me add that I'd like to replicate that success with a carefully planned EMS tune.</fingers crossed>the whole idea of boost comp is to keep the AF ratio consistent at any boost pressure so long as the injectors and pump can keep up. If the car was tuned for 12 psi of boost correctly and the map/fuel table set correctly, a boost spike to 20psi or 30psi will result in the same AF ratio as at 12psi.
BUT I would think that the timing map should be set VERY low for the load rows above what you intend to run.
and just for a data point...at the dragstrip my intake temps can vary 20* on the same day at the end of 4th gear from run to run. Starting out at around ambient 50's...I see over 110 at the end. The engine can for sure take more timing at 50*F intake temps in first gear than it can at 120* temps. The AIT sensor is a whopping $40, no reason not to have it, even if only to datalog.
Last edited by DSMotorsport; Nov 25, 2004 at 07:30 PM.
Originally Posted by TurbotrixRacing
Im sure you log AIT temps when your at the track, what are they. Im curious to see a road course app, as apposed to daily driven / drag apps. Esp with the stock front mount that i think you have correct ?
Mark
turbotrix
Mark
turbotrix
That's why I'm such a big water/methanol injection freak. Its really good for that margin of safety you need out there.
Originally Posted by DSMotorsport
All would work fine other than #2....most tuners are doing cars with the boost compensation method. The boost comp way uses that MAP/Fuel graph as the basic multiplier for it to work, so you really shoudn't be using it as a failsafe. <snip>
Originally Posted by propellerhead
Yeah, I was wondering about that. Even so, just as you would pull timing from the high load cells you don't intend to run, couldn't you also use the boost comp to dump fuel. In otherwords, keep the comp curve linear up until the point on the load scale where an overboost situation would be taking place. Aside from that, is there any other overboost fuel trim/protection available?
my point was that "failsafe" is kinda unneeded becuase if the boost/fuel map is set linear a boost spike will not cause a lean-out unless you run out of injector/pump
Originally Posted by DSMotorsport
yes you totally can make the car run a richer AF ratio above a set boost level..you can make it progressivly richer if you wanted to. That would be perfectly fine so long as you don't intend to actually run well at that load level.
my point was that "failsafe" is kinda unneeded becuase if the boost/fuel map is set linear a boost spike will not cause a lean-out unless you run out of injector/pump
my point was that "failsafe" is kinda unneeded becuase if the boost/fuel map is set linear a boost spike will not cause a lean-out unless you run out of injector/pump
Regardless, I did a little digging and found there is an option for fuel cut for overboost situations. So there's yet another failsafe available!
More "belts and suspenders"! Now if AEM would just enhance the EMS so it could flash the CEL when ever knock voltage exceeded a certain level...
Originally Posted by Az3ar
After all AEM is scaring me more and more everyday. Sorry to hear about your story and good luck.
Originally Posted by propellerhead
An AEM EMS shouldn't scare you any more than a loaded gun sitting by itself on a table. It's only dangerous in the wrong hands.
I just don’t see a tuner or anyone that can tune AEM or standalone in 2 or even in 8 hrs session. What took Mitsu years to develop with the stock ECU can’t be done in few hrs (that’s what I believe). I think keeping the stock ECU with or with out a piggy back system is the idle way. AEM is just over kill.
Hell, even my friend Chris on these forums had his engine blown (he has AEM). Now we don’t know the true story behind what caused it, it could be bad gas, race gas or the tuner did not set knock activity but all I know is that with the stock ECU it would have pulled timing and most likely his engine would have survived.
Last edited by Az3ar; Nov 25, 2004 at 08:29 PM.