AEM Series 2
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,791
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From: In the Florida Swamps
AEM Series 2
Is this a repost ?? I realize its about 4 mos old, but I thought I's ask/share.
This is copy & paste of JR's answers from the Supra forums about the Series 2 for Supra.
Delsolid: Let me jump in here and clear some things up.
The Gen2 EMS is being worked on right now and is running on lots of development cars. The basic Gen2 main board supports 12 sequential injectors and 8 individual coils.
The Gen2 main board by itself will only drive saturated injectors. If the application needs peak & hold drivers they are added on the adapter board. So if you ask tech support if the Gen2 supports P&H drivers they will likely answer "no".
However, when designing the new adapter board for the Supra we asked for opinions from a few respected guys out there and were told very clearly that it needed native P&H drivers on board. So the Gen 2 EMS for the Supra does indeed have 12 internal peak & hold injector drivers.
Sorry for the confusion. Most of the tech support guys will assume you are asking about the generic gen2 PnP computers and they will not have P&H.
Also, the transmission control is totally redone in this unit. The shift firmness is now fully adjustable from soft to hard rather than the current bone jarring sharpness of the current box. Additionally, the lock up converter will work properly.
As to the manufacturer and reliability. The only thing the Gen2 EMS main board shares with the Gen1 EMS is the length and width. The entire board design and manufacturer are totally changed.
Last but definitely not least, let me address the release schedule. The Gen2 EMS will start shipping around the end of this year but that does not necessarily mean the Supra will be shipping then (We have multiple gen2 PnP EMS's in development right now, STi's EVO etc... besides the Supra). At this point I think the Supra will be first out of the gate but only extensive testing will tell for sure and we aren't at the point where I can make that call yet. We have not announced the Gen2 Supra EMS yet nor assigned a price (trying to keep it the same but can't promise anything). The one on display was used since it was the only one I had that was already laser etched with the "Gen2" on the case. Please don't hold your breath and expect this to be out in the next week, it's NOT coming. I am thinking January but it could easily be later. Maybe earlier.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Park
Yes, I was told that you will indeed be able to password protect the maps.
The system will launch without the ability to protect maps but that function will be added in the near future. The addition will be a free software update when it is released.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Park
Whether the UEGO option will be incorporated as part of the "Supra Edition" is still unknown, or so I was told.
There will not be internal UEGO's offered. I was always of the opinion that they were great and everyone should get them but after offering them for 3+ years I have been proven wrong. People want an external unit with a display.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lambchop11078
Any support for drive by wire?
No. The Series1 based ECUs currently support a very nice DBW implementation for the STi but since the unit we are talking about is a plug-&-play Supra box it will not have it since the Supra does not have the hardware.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SealSupra-6
do you know if AEM will offer an upgrade package for customers already running the 1st Gen box? I hope they do.
I dont know. The Series2 box uses nothing, literally, nothing from the Series1 ECU so there is no upgrading or refurbishing a Series1 ECU into a Series2 ECU. However, with that said, I personally would like to see something like this in place as well but I'm an engineer and have nothing to do with those types of decisions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radride
Can we just take the map directly out of the Gen 1 box and download it into the Gen 2 without any problems and having to get the car re-tuned?
It depends. While the Series1 and the Series2 ECU's are totally different, the system has been designed to allow a map conversion to take place with minimum user tweaking required. However, since the Series2 ECU now has P&H injector drivers your injector response will need to be recalibrated if you are currently mapped with saturated injectors or use a resistor pack. We are documenting the changes required and will have a roadmap / checklist that should get you close but until we convert a few cars out there I cant say with any authority how easy/hard it is going to be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radride
Also is it going to be easier to start the car. Right now because of the cam sensor or something like that my car takes longer to crank for it to start?
The Series2 ECU uses completely different firmware, literally rewritten from a clean sheet to remove most (all!) of the problems we knew about with the Series1 ECU's. The start should be faster.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krister
Any chance for Traction control via the ABS sensors?
No. The wheelspeed sensors don't come to the ECU.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Reed
I assume you are with AEM
Sorry, Yes. This is JR.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt
Will we have to switch to the AEM Tuner software? I'm used to AEM Pro.
No, You can use either, however AEMPro is a "dead" platform now. No updates will be provided. We have a full time programmer in house dedicated to AEMTuner and you will see very cool things with this platform in the future.
Quote:
Originally Posted by figgie
by chance, did they implement CANBus on this new revision?
Yes, The hardware is implemented for dual CAN bus channels but it will likely not be released in the initial Supra PnP release. We have it working internally but are still struggling with how exactly to make is useful for the average user. We want it to be programmable as part of the cal file. We want the user to be able to enter a header, scalar and such and have it transmit parameters and the same for reading but have to study some more before we lock ourselves into it. When it is released it will be a free downloadable upgrade for all users.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jt granberry
I 2nd the question about not needing the ignition box. I'm guessing we will still need it?
You can keep it or toss it. The Series2 Supra PnP will have 3 jumper selectable ignition outputs: Standard Supra, rising edge trigger and falling edge trigger.
Additionally, the knock sensor system is different. Rather than a hardware filter the system has software selectable frequency ranges for identifying knock.
But let me once again say that the system is NOT set for imminent release. I am posting this information here because this thread exists and would rather that the information be correct rather than speculation. Many companies hype up products before release and then leave people hanging forever. We have been guilty of this in the past and I am loath to repeat it. The box is at least 60 days, and more likely, 90 days out. If you have an imminent need then buy something else right now. When it is released, it will be in small numbers initially and those will only go to trusted AEM tuners who have helped to develop it. You wont see them on ebay or being whored out.
In the past, especially when the Series1 was initially released, we've bowed to pressure (that we helped to create) and released products that were not fully tested or debugged. We wont do it this time. As of everything I have in front of me right now I think this will begin selling just after the first of the year but I wont hesitate to push it back indefinitely if I sense something wrong with it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesN1830
Will there be a table to control boost/fuel/timing based off a e85 sensor in the tank? This is a big one for me and alot of other guys. Also a trim so that it messes with startup trims based off the e85 sensor.... currently, o2 fb works good for mix changes driving around, but cold start can suck due to mix changes.
There is a trim (User #2) that allows a global fuel trim based off of a 0-5v input. It does not trim timing or boost, just fuel but it is a global modifier working during engine cranking and while running. It is accessed via "Fuel => Advanced Fuel => Fuel Trims => User Defined Fuel trim". The X axis (bottom) is 0-100% (0-5v) and the Y axis is the fuel trim (-50 to +50%).
This is currently available on the existing Supra PnP and will be retained on the new box as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt
I had to change a resistor in my AEM to add an oil temp sensor. Will I need to do a similar mod to the Gen2 box in order to add and additional temp sensor?
No longer necessary. The extra analog inputs are now jumper selectable for either a standard 5V input, a thermistor (air temp, coolant or oil temp) or a RTD style EGT sensor. So just changing a jumper position will change the signal conditioning for each analog input.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt
I guess with USB, internal logs will download much faster?
It's like night and day. Despite being twice as big (1MB logger memory standard) it downloads in just a couple of seconds. Even the old style serial comms is 4x faster.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Park
I don't think you were proven wrong - everyone should get them but the well thought option was overtaken by a cheaper option, a poor decision by the end user. ... As far as the external display, the serial datastream gauge covers that, no?
Yes, you are correct. I still believe is it the ideal way but the economics of the high volume external UEGO gauge/controller versus the low volume platform specific internal UEGO means the external will always be less expensive and that's what the customers buy. We literally sell 10x the external UEGO gauges than all the internal UEGO EMS's combined.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Park
Now, what is the story on the base maps? Still 16x16, 32x32, VE?
The 3D Map size and structure will remain unchanged from Series1. 17x21 (Load vs RPM) with all user adjustable breakpoints. We find this to be more than adequate and more points will simply be filled in to make a smooth map anyway rather than actually be tuned. Also, if they changed in size then everyone would have to re-tune their cars and that would not be good at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4wd-eclipse
JR, is the added protect maps function will be working also in Gen1 EMS ?
No, just the Gen2 and even that wont have it at launch.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeC
Any speculation on a price range?
No price has been set yet but the goal is for it to cost no more than the existing unit (street price of sub $2K, all in except tuning). Can't say for sure we will be able to do it but at this point it looks like we will.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wez
* Does it have better control of the auto box?
Significantly better. The user will finally be able to make meaningful adjustments of shift firmness and the lockup will finally work right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wez
* Does it have upgraded/faster processors?
Yes, significantly, but that alone doesn't mean a product will be faster/better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wez
* Can you plug a k-type EGT probe directly into it?
No. you will need an external conditioner to convert it to a 0-5V signal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wez
* Does it support direct wideband connection with sensor failure detection?
The unit is being designed to work with our new external UEGO controllers which have sensor failure detection built in. If a sensor fails the voltage will go to a preset failure point which will deactivate any O2 F/B using that sensor and flag it as failed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wez
* Does it have increased map resolution?
The 3D Map size and structure will remain unchanged from Series1. 17x21 (Load vs RPM) with all user adjustable breakpoints. We find this to be more than adequate and more points will simply be filled in to make a smooth map anyway rather than actually be tuned. Also, if they changed in size then everyone would have to re-tune their cars and that would not be good at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krister
Anybody can comment on this? Delsoid?
The Series2 Supra PnP will not have individual wheelspeed based traction control. The production unit will ship with the same "rate of change" gear based traction control that the existing unit has.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZaZZn
Also it sucks that you don't allow a K-type themo, the other ones are far too expensive K-Type should supported naively especially since the type of user that will use this type of ecu is someone like me which already has K-type sensors.
You can still use them, you just use a thermocouple amp to convert the signal to 5v for the ECU to read. If we made them k-type native it reduces the available channels for non thermocouple devices to use.
This is copy & paste of JR's answers from the Supra forums about the Series 2 for Supra.
Delsolid: Let me jump in here and clear some things up.
The Gen2 EMS is being worked on right now and is running on lots of development cars. The basic Gen2 main board supports 12 sequential injectors and 8 individual coils.
The Gen2 main board by itself will only drive saturated injectors. If the application needs peak & hold drivers they are added on the adapter board. So if you ask tech support if the Gen2 supports P&H drivers they will likely answer "no".
However, when designing the new adapter board for the Supra we asked for opinions from a few respected guys out there and were told very clearly that it needed native P&H drivers on board. So the Gen 2 EMS for the Supra does indeed have 12 internal peak & hold injector drivers.
Sorry for the confusion. Most of the tech support guys will assume you are asking about the generic gen2 PnP computers and they will not have P&H.
Also, the transmission control is totally redone in this unit. The shift firmness is now fully adjustable from soft to hard rather than the current bone jarring sharpness of the current box. Additionally, the lock up converter will work properly.
As to the manufacturer and reliability. The only thing the Gen2 EMS main board shares with the Gen1 EMS is the length and width. The entire board design and manufacturer are totally changed.
Last but definitely not least, let me address the release schedule. The Gen2 EMS will start shipping around the end of this year but that does not necessarily mean the Supra will be shipping then (We have multiple gen2 PnP EMS's in development right now, STi's EVO etc... besides the Supra). At this point I think the Supra will be first out of the gate but only extensive testing will tell for sure and we aren't at the point where I can make that call yet. We have not announced the Gen2 Supra EMS yet nor assigned a price (trying to keep it the same but can't promise anything). The one on display was used since it was the only one I had that was already laser etched with the "Gen2" on the case. Please don't hold your breath and expect this to be out in the next week, it's NOT coming. I am thinking January but it could easily be later. Maybe earlier.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Park
Yes, I was told that you will indeed be able to password protect the maps.
The system will launch without the ability to protect maps but that function will be added in the near future. The addition will be a free software update when it is released.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Park
Whether the UEGO option will be incorporated as part of the "Supra Edition" is still unknown, or so I was told.
There will not be internal UEGO's offered. I was always of the opinion that they were great and everyone should get them but after offering them for 3+ years I have been proven wrong. People want an external unit with a display.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lambchop11078
Any support for drive by wire?
No. The Series1 based ECUs currently support a very nice DBW implementation for the STi but since the unit we are talking about is a plug-&-play Supra box it will not have it since the Supra does not have the hardware.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SealSupra-6
do you know if AEM will offer an upgrade package for customers already running the 1st Gen box? I hope they do.
I dont know. The Series2 box uses nothing, literally, nothing from the Series1 ECU so there is no upgrading or refurbishing a Series1 ECU into a Series2 ECU. However, with that said, I personally would like to see something like this in place as well but I'm an engineer and have nothing to do with those types of decisions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radride
Can we just take the map directly out of the Gen 1 box and download it into the Gen 2 without any problems and having to get the car re-tuned?
It depends. While the Series1 and the Series2 ECU's are totally different, the system has been designed to allow a map conversion to take place with minimum user tweaking required. However, since the Series2 ECU now has P&H injector drivers your injector response will need to be recalibrated if you are currently mapped with saturated injectors or use a resistor pack. We are documenting the changes required and will have a roadmap / checklist that should get you close but until we convert a few cars out there I cant say with any authority how easy/hard it is going to be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radride
Also is it going to be easier to start the car. Right now because of the cam sensor or something like that my car takes longer to crank for it to start?
The Series2 ECU uses completely different firmware, literally rewritten from a clean sheet to remove most (all!) of the problems we knew about with the Series1 ECU's. The start should be faster.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krister
Any chance for Traction control via the ABS sensors?
No. The wheelspeed sensors don't come to the ECU.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Reed
I assume you are with AEM
Sorry, Yes. This is JR.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt
Will we have to switch to the AEM Tuner software? I'm used to AEM Pro.
No, You can use either, however AEMPro is a "dead" platform now. No updates will be provided. We have a full time programmer in house dedicated to AEMTuner and you will see very cool things with this platform in the future.
Quote:
Originally Posted by figgie
by chance, did they implement CANBus on this new revision?
Yes, The hardware is implemented for dual CAN bus channels but it will likely not be released in the initial Supra PnP release. We have it working internally but are still struggling with how exactly to make is useful for the average user. We want it to be programmable as part of the cal file. We want the user to be able to enter a header, scalar and such and have it transmit parameters and the same for reading but have to study some more before we lock ourselves into it. When it is released it will be a free downloadable upgrade for all users.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jt granberry
I 2nd the question about not needing the ignition box. I'm guessing we will still need it?
You can keep it or toss it. The Series2 Supra PnP will have 3 jumper selectable ignition outputs: Standard Supra, rising edge trigger and falling edge trigger.
Additionally, the knock sensor system is different. Rather than a hardware filter the system has software selectable frequency ranges for identifying knock.
But let me once again say that the system is NOT set for imminent release. I am posting this information here because this thread exists and would rather that the information be correct rather than speculation. Many companies hype up products before release and then leave people hanging forever. We have been guilty of this in the past and I am loath to repeat it. The box is at least 60 days, and more likely, 90 days out. If you have an imminent need then buy something else right now. When it is released, it will be in small numbers initially and those will only go to trusted AEM tuners who have helped to develop it. You wont see them on ebay or being whored out.
In the past, especially when the Series1 was initially released, we've bowed to pressure (that we helped to create) and released products that were not fully tested or debugged. We wont do it this time. As of everything I have in front of me right now I think this will begin selling just after the first of the year but I wont hesitate to push it back indefinitely if I sense something wrong with it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesN1830
Will there be a table to control boost/fuel/timing based off a e85 sensor in the tank? This is a big one for me and alot of other guys. Also a trim so that it messes with startup trims based off the e85 sensor.... currently, o2 fb works good for mix changes driving around, but cold start can suck due to mix changes.
There is a trim (User #2) that allows a global fuel trim based off of a 0-5v input. It does not trim timing or boost, just fuel but it is a global modifier working during engine cranking and while running. It is accessed via "Fuel => Advanced Fuel => Fuel Trims => User Defined Fuel trim". The X axis (bottom) is 0-100% (0-5v) and the Y axis is the fuel trim (-50 to +50%).
This is currently available on the existing Supra PnP and will be retained on the new box as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt
I had to change a resistor in my AEM to add an oil temp sensor. Will I need to do a similar mod to the Gen2 box in order to add and additional temp sensor?
No longer necessary. The extra analog inputs are now jumper selectable for either a standard 5V input, a thermistor (air temp, coolant or oil temp) or a RTD style EGT sensor. So just changing a jumper position will change the signal conditioning for each analog input.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt
I guess with USB, internal logs will download much faster?
It's like night and day. Despite being twice as big (1MB logger memory standard) it downloads in just a couple of seconds. Even the old style serial comms is 4x faster.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Park
I don't think you were proven wrong - everyone should get them but the well thought option was overtaken by a cheaper option, a poor decision by the end user. ... As far as the external display, the serial datastream gauge covers that, no?
Yes, you are correct. I still believe is it the ideal way but the economics of the high volume external UEGO gauge/controller versus the low volume platform specific internal UEGO means the external will always be less expensive and that's what the customers buy. We literally sell 10x the external UEGO gauges than all the internal UEGO EMS's combined.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Park
Now, what is the story on the base maps? Still 16x16, 32x32, VE?
The 3D Map size and structure will remain unchanged from Series1. 17x21 (Load vs RPM) with all user adjustable breakpoints. We find this to be more than adequate and more points will simply be filled in to make a smooth map anyway rather than actually be tuned. Also, if they changed in size then everyone would have to re-tune their cars and that would not be good at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4wd-eclipse
JR, is the added protect maps function will be working also in Gen1 EMS ?
No, just the Gen2 and even that wont have it at launch.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeC
Any speculation on a price range?
No price has been set yet but the goal is for it to cost no more than the existing unit (street price of sub $2K, all in except tuning). Can't say for sure we will be able to do it but at this point it looks like we will.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wez
* Does it have better control of the auto box?
Significantly better. The user will finally be able to make meaningful adjustments of shift firmness and the lockup will finally work right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wez
* Does it have upgraded/faster processors?
Yes, significantly, but that alone doesn't mean a product will be faster/better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wez
* Can you plug a k-type EGT probe directly into it?
No. you will need an external conditioner to convert it to a 0-5V signal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wez
* Does it support direct wideband connection with sensor failure detection?
The unit is being designed to work with our new external UEGO controllers which have sensor failure detection built in. If a sensor fails the voltage will go to a preset failure point which will deactivate any O2 F/B using that sensor and flag it as failed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wez
* Does it have increased map resolution?
The 3D Map size and structure will remain unchanged from Series1. 17x21 (Load vs RPM) with all user adjustable breakpoints. We find this to be more than adequate and more points will simply be filled in to make a smooth map anyway rather than actually be tuned. Also, if they changed in size then everyone would have to re-tune their cars and that would not be good at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krister
Anybody can comment on this? Delsoid?
The Series2 Supra PnP will not have individual wheelspeed based traction control. The production unit will ship with the same "rate of change" gear based traction control that the existing unit has.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZaZZn
Also it sucks that you don't allow a K-type themo, the other ones are far too expensive K-Type should supported naively especially since the type of user that will use this type of ecu is someone like me which already has K-type sensors.
You can still use them, you just use a thermocouple amp to convert the signal to 5v for the ECU to read. If we made them k-type native it reduces the available channels for non thermocouple devices to use.
