Well those are some of the best drivers in the world with the best setup for a car so it has nothing to do with any special gadgetry to spin donuts.....brake bias???? wtf...

 

I think its fair to say that F1 drivers are not clearly better and they don't have anything on ProRally WRC guys.

F1 drivers get to practice on the course and see the same turn countless times on very sticky tarmac while rally guys are forced to go full tilt boogie over long stages on multiple surfaces in any weather having never seen one turn of it.

I'll stand by my statement.

 

Tommi was the only one, who could beat the higher class cars in worldchampion ship. Same day ,same track but different class!i don't know anybody else...

 

You guys realise that the Race of Champions held at the end of the year settles this debate?

Heiki Kovalanen has won recently; as has Sebastian Loeb in previous years. They drive different types of cars, buggies etc on the same day in a super special stage. It all comes down to whose hot on the day.

I'm sitting on the fence; generally I think the WRC guys have got the skills hands down dealing with different corners and different surfaces and quite often in different weather that changes frequently; but then when you think about what Schumacher did in has last F1 Grand Prix in Brazil - that performance leads me to put doubt in my mind!

 

Schumacher is a cyborg. He does not count!

No question that the F1 guys are stupid talented but I just think that the WRC and RallyAmerica guys get near the respect they deserve. The sort of driving that they do goes far beyond what most any other racer would consider safe or sane.

 

Well, it does and it doesn't (the RoC). I mean, if one race is sufficient to tell which driver is better than there's no point of any championship. It's more a a test of adaptability to a certain situations. Now that is a skill and you still have to be superhuman to win, but it's not as if it's as clear cut as putting to rest who's better. In any case, while those different types of cars can emulate road or even rally cars, they really can't go anywhere near the complexity of an F1 car. (and the ability to drive and tune a 'downforce' car is generally very specific to drivers of F1 and few other open wheel series.)

Yes, rally drivers do have to adapt to different surfaces and such much more, but their cars are designed such that it allows them to do so more easily (while it's anything but easy that they do). They're not as optimized as F1 cars for example as wins are usually in minutes rather than tenths of seconds. Their performance criterior are totally different. The more optimized something is (such as an F1 car) the less flexible it becomes and the fact that F1 drivers fall off the road with it's wet is really no indication that they lack skill, it's just that their cars become crazy difficult. I'm willing to bet that if you put a WRC driver in an F1 car in the rain against an F1 driver, the F1 driver will be quicker simply because he's more familiar with the machinery.

All I'm saying is that both F1 and WRC are full of great driver. Evidently F1 does put on a better 'show' but the very nature of the WRC is really not geared up for spectators and perhaps that's why they're not getting such good publicity or public awareness.

 

OK, I agree that the FI driver will be faster in the F1 car than the WRC guy.

Put the F1 guy in a WRC car however and ask him to go fast on the roads they go fast on having NEVER seen the road and they may well finish wrong side up or worse.

Also, many WRC events end up with several cars inside a min or so of total stage time after 3+ hours of total race action. Considering all the variables I don't think thats less than optimized.

 

Seconded; quite often there are numerous drivers that set identical times or within 1 sec; when you consider its 10-45km stage - thats pretty darn close!

Should we all agree to disagree?

 

I don't think this will be the case. In WRC, they have a run of the stage to make the pacenotes. Plus there's a co-driver. Obviously, an F1 driver will probably be slower as he's not exactly used to the equipment and the system but I doubt he'll be all that terrible. No worse than a WRC driver would be than an F1 driver in an F1 car. So it's pretty even.

F1 works in tenths of seconds so for example adding a pound or two to an F1 car is more critical than adding the same weight to a rally car. And as we've seen time and time again that very small changes to for example aero stuff can make huge changes to lap times where as I'm pretty sure you can add 10 degrees to a rear wing of a WRC car and it will probably clock the same time. Basically, in F1 things are designed and set up to operate with extreme efficiency in a very small range of conditions (which is how it needs to be to win) while in rallying, things are designed to operate with somewhat less efficiency but over a much wider range of conditions. Now there's no reason why WRC car can't be close to each other as they all take roughly the same approach. That's not what I meant by optimized.

Basically, you'd expect a stock car to be able to perform fairly consistently whatever the condition or surface (with the obvious sensible allowances) and that's what they normally do. And that's owing a lot to the fact that it's designed that way and not so much the driver's ability to adapt to situations (although that helps a lot). What I'm saying is that WRC cars are more similar to this. Whereas F1 cars are designed to run within a very narrow range of track temperatures, surface characteristics, fuel load, air temp, wind direction etc. and if conditions deviate from this, instead of being a little less suitable, it becomes virtually impossible. I mean, if you go out on full slicks on your car, it would work good in the dry, but if it starts raining it will go very quickly the other way, right? Yes, in rallying sometimes set up and tyre choice don't go to plan or weather changes, but it's more like using a high performance summer tyre in the rain - obviously pretty bad, but not as unusable as the other example.

 

IMO trying to speculate and hypothesize which drivers "would do better in each others' environment/machines" or even more ignorant "are better drivers in general" is pointless and moot. They are different mororsports and the drivers have some sililarities and some differences in their strengths and weaknesses. Why do we need to compare the two?

Anyway, besides the immense skill rally drivers posess to shift the vehicle's weight in and out of corners and modulate throttle and wheelspin for control traction and turning radii, yes, many rally cars have independent hydraulic ebrake and brake bias adjustment levers that allow them to lock up either the front or rear wheels, even simultaneously while applying power to the others. This way they can power-over, scandinavian flick, and turn tiny circles with precise control.

 

probably disconectable front and rear diffs

 

I did this in my evo before, actually i do it quite often when i want to make a tight turn and not go slow. I just pull the e-brake. heh

 

Rally cars are dependent on the shift transfer between front and rear axles. They also do more left foot braking and than e-braking. I think (correct if wrong) the car in the video has LSD like rally cars would.

That's all I know.

 

To compare WRC to F1 is comparing apples to oranges.

Yes, F1 drivers see the same turn several times before actually racing. Yes, they have extensive knowledge of the machinery they use and are the most aerodynamically engineered vehicles engineers can currently produce. However, F1 racers sit in cars where the temperatures easily get over 120 degrees Fahrenheit (sp?).

WRC drivers must adapt quickly to a constantly changing course where weather factors must me analyzed quickly and effectively. However, WRC drivers do have co-drivers with pacenotes. While it's not the same as experiencing the track with test runs and qualifying runs, it's not like they're approaching every corner blind.

Simply put, we're looking at incredibly demanding driving experiences that burden the drivers with entirely different factors. To say that we should put one in the other's seat and judge who would win is pointless. There is virtually no fair ground between the two. A WRC driver would probably win any race with a rally car or performance car. While the F1 driver would take the WRC driver to school in a F1 car or a kart race. The closest to a level playing field I could think of would be NASCAR stock car racing. Even then there would be factors that would shift the advantage to one driver. It's apples to oranges. But there's always gonna be people who like oranges more and people who like apples more. So take your pick.

 

heel & toe techniques on the brake and gas pedal......+.....e-brake