You don't want to pull up on the e-brake because it might lock up the rear wheels causing the car to go into a skid.

 

Actually, YES you can stop quicker by pumping the brake (in a vehicle that does not have ABS) depending on the road conditions (dry). However, in this senario the ABS system is the winner.

 

YES, you can actually stop quicker by pumping the brakes (dry road conditions). But you can't beat the ABS for snow/ice. It allows you to brake and steer simultaneously without losing control. Definitely check it out first.

 

well...why not pull the ebrake..whip around in a 180 and drop the hammer....i mean...lmao...if u got all the tires locked up and ur rollin down hill slam it into 1st at 4-5k and watch the tires light up the ice/snow...

so...do a 180, drop th ehammer...you'll eventually climb the mountain

OR get some nice tires and FLY down the mountain ASAP!


i dunno about ABS i kinda miss it..but it did cause some probs...in my grandam i slammed on my brakes in the rain and the ABS came on and i ended up sliding off the road into a ditch and all the dmg cost $450....and in a 2000 impala on another rainy day i was doin 30 mph and hit the brakes to make a right turn like usual...but the brakes didnt really stop to well i flew through the intersection almost facing traffic coming at me...it was scary...VERY scary. but in my Lancer...non-abs i was pullin up to a stop sign and hit my brakes like usual and tires locked up...weird..it was a gravel road though...and twice on a stop sign by my house its down-hill and im doin 10-15 mph and i hit the brakes a little and 4 tires lockup and i gotta steer it a lil bit to avoid the car in front of me or get it to stop at the sign and not past it...not to much fun either.

 

I think you're confusing ABS with Traction Control? ABS (Antilock Brake System) was designed to improve traction in straight braking on wet and slick surfaces, and although I have ran into my own fair share of crappy ABS systems (try a Chevy Suburban for size), they do a decent job of "pumping" the brake for you, making sure the wheels keep traction instead of just hydroplaning, which happens on non ABS cars when you slam on the brake. Traction control is similar to ABS, but is designed to keep the tires gripping under braking as well as accelerating.

I too am not a big fan of ABS, as it gets in the way of racing when trying to oversteer or other techniques, but that's also probably because it rains maybe 10-20 days per year where I live, and the rest is dry roads.

 

So from what I just read most of the members on this board agrees that:

With the EVO and its ABS, its best to apply a firm pressure on the brake and let ABS do its thing while downshifting at the same time.

 

A while back some ITR guys over at Honda-Tech.com ran a test in a parking lot to, once and for all, end this ABS vs non-ABS debate. If memory serves me right, they had three ITR's, all three ran 60-0 in a damped parking lot, with and without ABS. The result: ABS wins.

The best solution to this problem is to never let it happen. When you're driving in poor road conditions, SLOW THE F*** DOWN usually helps a lot. Don't let speed build up, especially if you are not familiar with the area. Downhills are bad too, so watch out for those. There's really nothing worse than crashing in heavy snow, and having to wait a few hours for a tow truck (because they're so busy towing other wrecked cars or cars stuck in snow or ditches).

 

I haven't had the opportunity to try this in my EVO yet, to see if it works with a manual but.....when driving an automatic and going down a slick grade, frontwards or backwards, putting the car in neutral and gentle application of the brakes will keep the wheels from locking up and allow you to come to a controlled stop at the bottom of the hill. This is a technique recommended by the Washington State Patrol and one that I used as a law enforcement officer in the mountains of northeastern Washington. It kept me out of a ditch, and other cars several times. Again, I haven't had the opportunity to try this in my EVO, just got her the week before Christmas, but I don't see why it wouldn't work with a manual transmission. This technique also works well with ABS equiped vehicles, you just have to have a gentle touch on the brakes. And of course slowing down, braking sooner and more gently is always a good idea in snow and ice.

 

ABS is not, and was never designed for icy/wet/snowy road conditions...It was designed to prevent panic stops by a driver, locking the brakes will cause the car to continue its slide in a straight line...Most people see what they think is trouble up ahead, and immediately slam on the brakes and stay on them, in which case they end up sliding right into what they were trying to avoid...

with the ABS, they now have a greater control over their car...ABS essentially is just modulating hydraulic brake fluid pressure within the brake lines, several thousand times a second...This system has absolutely nothing to do with the hydraulic brake system, and 99% of the time it is just along for the ride

Traction control will apply the brakes whenever the wheels begin to spin, this is usually monitored by the wheel speed sensors

 

That's odd, everything I ever read about ABS said that 99% of its benefit is for wet conditions. Although you don't want to skid in either dry or wet conditions, you are more likely to do it in wet, so the ABS "pumps" the brakes for you (as you said) in order to keep the wheels moving with the ground. Also, a car skidding on dry asphault will stop almost as quickly as one not skidding, just maybe not in a straight line, while a car that's hydroplaning on water will almost not slow down at all. That's why ABS is known for its wet traction benefits. I really couldn't tell you if it has any benefit on snow, however.

 

Neutral is the go. Do not brake in slippery conditions with the clutch OUT. Push the clutch in as soon as you brake (which is different than dry road technique where you wait to push the clutch in till the downshift and only if you downshift). You should pump even with ABS because you can do a LESS aggressive pump that the ABS system. You want to pump quickly but lightly trying not to get lock-up (more threshold than lock-up). The problem with lock-up on ice (and packed snow) is there is not much friction to get the wheels rolling again (and the ABS will pump hard enough to get lock-up), it takes a long time therefore to regain steering control after to aggressive a pump (ABS or driver error). BTW in loose snow lock-up will give you the shortest stop (true in gravel as well) because of the "dam" effect in front of the tire, basically a wedge of packed material will form, slowing the car quicker. Of course you will still lose steering control while locked-up so you have to decide what is most important

 

Actually, that's not the case at all. ABS was never designed to shorten stopping distances. The idea was to retain some steering control under braking.

Here's the scenario: an inexperienced driver is moving along and a dog runs across the street. The right thing to do is to straighten out the wheel and threshold brake. Experienced drivers do this instinctively (it's one of the first things you learn at a high-performance driving school...brake in a straight line only). But that's not what most drivers do! They instinctively MASH the brakes (rather than threshold brake) and simultaneously JERK the wheel one side. Now, you're guaranteed to slide straight into the object you were trying to avoid in the first place.

So, the idea behind ABS was to modulate the brakes on and off so that you could have some steering control under hard braking. Early ABS systems almost always lengthened stopping distances...sometimes dramatically. Further, those stopping distances were significantly longer on low-friction surfaces like snow, ice, rain, and gravel. To this day, many (if not most) rally drivers prefer non-ABS cars. Almost all sedan racers I know disable their ABS systems on the track.

Only the latest ABS systems (like those on F1 cars) have shorter stopping distances than good old-fashioned threshold braking. The technology is getting better while driving skill is generally getting worse. That's why ABS seems to outperform threshold braking for your typical street driver.

Emre

 

Kayaalp, this is exactly how I understood ABS for years.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/anti-lock-brake.htm
Like you said, inexperienced drivers MASH the brake, which causes the tires to lose traction. But not just while turning the wheel, even if the wheel is straight, the traction is what makes the car stop the quickest. So ABS brakes release the brakes at calculated intervals to make sure the wheels are gripping the road. The reason that works especially well in wet conditions is that it is even harder to threshold brake on a slippery surface.

 

I think we're saying the same thing! Compared to mashing the brakes and locking up, mashing the brakes and letting ABS sort it out is certainly better. However, a good driver who knows how to threshold brake well can still do better under most circumstances...especially in low-grip conditions. Rolling friction (threshold braking) is better than repeatedly locking up and releasing the brakes.

I've been driving my Evo on slippery, ice and slush covered roads up here in Canada and been very disappointed by the ABS on the car (yes, I'm using snow tires! Dunlop Graspics). I've tested it by driving at a specific speed on a straight road with cars parked on each side. Get up to a specific speed, brake, and see how many parked car lengths it takes to stop. Threshold braking is much, much better for me than ABS under these conditions. With ABS, you actually feel the car "accelerate" (if you know what I mean) when the ABS kicks in. The stopping distance is significantly longer with ABS.

Emre

 

Yes, I think you're right, we're saying the same thing in a different way. I know that the Canadian Lancers have ABS as an option while US Lancers don't (except the LS I believe). Is the same true for the Evo? I would hope all of the autocrossing Evos around here don't have to deal with ABS.