I understand that at peak torque/power timing is pulled and then it begins to go up again until it hits 18-21 by redline. but when there is knock, as is the knock sum of 6 shows, shouldn't timing be pulled? In this case it is not. It goes up from 13 to 15 while the knock sum is steady at 6. Why is that?

 

So trying to figure out X knock counts = x degrees pulled is pretty much useless, at least as a general rule of thumb. Especially considering the VIII and IX's appear to have different values in the knock filter tables.

Girlie

 

The timing jumps about a bit, with granularity in the sensor readings, jitter like this is normal I reckon. http://john824.fotopic.net/p31381939.html this log of mine has rather more points as I was logging few items at high speed and also my maps don't have blocks of fixed timing.

 

The knock sums seem to disappear gradually, I think they can appear abruptly as in the log I showed (which should produce a fiercer retard if it is looking at the derivative of the knock signal as a spike is more suggestive of knock than a gradual increase in noise).

 

OK, I got this from a thread that was just posted in Ecuflash forum. You can link to it here http://www.vfaq.com/TMO/

o 3 or below, the ECU will advance timing.
o Between 3 and 7, the ECU leaves timing alone.
o Higher than 7, the ECU will begin retarding timing. Higher knock = higher retard, with the possibility of seeing less than 4deg total advance at the maximum knock sum of 43.

The guy is talking about Mitsu ECUs. It seems that the ECU leaves timing alone from 3-7. Now Girlie's car has a 6 knock sum in the range I quoted, but the ECU increases timing!!!

 

Maybe it is a IX thing? Alot of tuners stated that the IX is less prone to knock, maybe they meant the ecu is less sensative to it? I have looked at a VIII and a IX knock sensor filter maps. They are different. Is it possible the IX allows more knock than the VIII did, or atleast treats it differently? That could also play into why IX's are making more power and running faster times?

I am going to do a couple more pulls today to try and duplicate the data. I will also try lowering the boost and raising it to see what data that presents as well.

Girlie

 

More runs will help. Try and do them at the same spot with similar temps. Also make one change at a time.

 

will do. I am going to try to keep the variables to a minimum.

 

Ok, I never got a chance to make changes, but I did do another datalog. Same spot, same gear (3rd) no changes to the car whatsoever.

RPM o2 volts Knock Timing
2875 0.94 2 15
2844 0.94 2 14
2813 0.94 1 12
2844 0.94 1 14
2938 0.94 1 14
2938 0.94 1 11
2938 0.94 0 11
2938 0.94 0 10
2969 0.94 0 9
3031 0.94 0 8
3031 0.94 0 8
3063 0.94 0 8
3094 0.94 0 8
3125 0.94 0 8
3125 0.94 0 8
3125 0.94 0 8
3188 0.94 0 8
3250 0.94 0 8
3250 0.94 0 8
3281 0.94 0 8
3313 0.94 0 8
3344 0.94 0 8
3375 0.94 0 8
3406 0.94 0 8
3438 0.94 0 8
3500 0.94 0 8
3531 0.94 0 8
3594 0.94 0 8
3625 0.94 0 8
3688 0.94 0 8
3688 0.96 0 8
3750 0.94 2 7
3813 0.94 2 7
3844 0.94 2 7
3875 0.94 2 7
3906 0.94 2 7
4000 0.94 2 7
4031 0.94 2 7
4063 0.94 2 7
4094 0.94 1 8
4156 0.94 1 8
4219 0.94 1 8
4250 0.94 1 8
4281 0.94 1 8
4313 0.94 1 8
4375 0.94 1 8
4438 0.94 1 8
4469 0.94 1 8
4531 0.94 1 8
4563 0.94 1 8
4594 0.94 1 8
4625 0.94 1 8
4688 0.94 1 8
4844 0.94 1 8
4906 0.94 1 9
4781 0.94 1 8
4875 0.94 1 8
5000 0.94 0 9
4938 0.94 0 9
4938 0.94 0 9
5031 0.94 0 10
5125 0.94 0 10
5125 0.94 0 10
5125 0.94 0 10
5188 0.94 0 10
5250 0.94 0 11
5313 0.94 0 11
5313 0.94 0 11
5406 0.94 0 11
5469 0.94 0 11
5469 0.94 0 11
5500 0.94 0 11
5531 0.94 0 11
5563 0.94 0 11
5594 0.94 0 11
5625 0.94 0 11
5688 0.94 0 11
5750 0.94 0 12
5781 0.94 0 12
5781 0.94 0 12
5781 0.94 0 12
5875 0.94 0 12
5906 0.94 1 11
5906 0.94 1 11
5938 0.94 0 12
6000 0.94 0 12
6063 0.94 0 12
6094 0.94 0 12
6094 0.94 0 12
6125 0.94 0 12
6188 0.94 0 12
6219 0.94 0 12
6250 0.94 0 13
6313 0.94 0 13
6344 0.94 0 13
6375 0.94 0 13
6406 0.94 0 13
6438 0.94 0 13
6469 0.94 0 13
6531 0.94 2 12
6531 0.94 2 12
6563 0.94 2 13
6625 0.94 1 14
6656 0.94 1 14
6656 0.94 1 14
6688 0.94 1 15
6719 0.94 1 15
6781 0.94 1 15
6813 0.94 1 15
6813 0.94 1 15
6875 0.94 1 15
6906 0.94 1 15
6938 0.94 1 15
6938 0.94 1 16
7000 0.94 3 16
7031 0.94 3 16
7063 0.94 3 16
7063 0.94 3 16
7125 0.94 3 16
7156 0.94 2 17
7188 0.94 2 17
7188 0.94 2 17
7219 0.94 2 17
7250 0.94 2 17
7281 0.94 2 17
7313 0.94 2 17
7344 0.94 2 17
7344 0.94 2 17
7375 0.94 2 18
7406 0.94 2 18
7469 0.94 2 18
7469 0.92 2 18
7500 0.94 2 18
7531 0.94 2 18
7531 0.94 2 18
7594 0.94 2 18

This seems to be the best log yet, atleast max timing wise. Any thoughts? Also, looking at the 3 third gear pulls, the only variable I can really find is Air Inlet Temp. Oddly, the warmer the AIT the lower the knock counts???

Girlie

 

Truely a perfect log. Even your 0.94 narrow band reads ok to my eyes.

Here are two of my logs. These are from a map from Shiv's web site. On the first log there is some timing pulled in the mid range. In the second one it is perfect.

Both logs were done on freeway on ramps which is not ideal.

RPM,Timing,O2
2383.0, 24.0, 0.58
2473.0, 16.0, 0.82
2594.0, 14.0, 0.86
2715.0, 13.0, 0.88
2875.0, 11.0, 0.9
3035.0, 8.0, 0.9
3211.0, 5.0, 0.92
3422.0, 4.0, 0.94
3699.0, 2.0, 0.94
3969.0, 3.0, 0.94
4270.0, 6.0, 0.94
4535.0, 7.0,0.92
4840.0, 7.0,0.92
5063.0, 8.0,0.92
5332.0, 5.0,0.92
5578.0, 4.0,0.94
5809.0, 6.0,0.94
6039.0, 8.0,0.94
6281.0, 10.0,0.92
6504.0, 12.0,0.92
6734.0, 15.0,0.94
6957.0, 16.0,0.94
7148.0, 17.0,0.94


RPM, Timing, O2
2961.0, 19.0, 0.88
3188.0, 14.0, 0.92
3434.0, 7.0, 0.92
3785.0, 5.0, 0.94
4133.0, 4.0, 0.92
4516.0, 5.0, 0.92
4871.0, 7.0, 0.92
5254.0, 8.0, 0.92
5555.0, 8.0, 0.92
5879.0, 9.0, 0.92
6180.0, 12.0, 0.92
6500.0, 15.0, 0.92
6762.0, 15.0, 0.92
6988.0, 17.0, 0.92

 

The portion where you 2 sums of knock between rpm 3688 and 4094 is causing you to lose 1 degree of timing. But other than that timing looks nice. I am somehow able to get a degree or more of timing up top than you, but I show no knock. These logs were made today. Used the same map last night and didnt show any knock in those areas.

Here is my log.

3rd gear

RPM, O2Sensor, KnockSum, TimingAdv
3187, 0.897, 0, 7
3218, 0.897, 0, 7
3312, 0.897, 0, 7
3343, 0.897, 0, 7
3406, 0.9165, 0, 7
3500, 0.9165, 0, 6
3531, 0.9165, 0, 6
3625, 0.9165, 1, 5
3687, 0.9165, 1, 5
3750, 0.9165, 1, 5
3875, 0.9165, 1, 5
3906, 0.9165, 1, 5
3968, 0.9165, 1, 5
4093, 0.9165, 1, 5
4125, 0.9165, 0, 6
4187, 0.9165, 0, 6
4281, 0.9165, 0, 7
4343, 0.9165, 0, 7
4437, 0.9165, 0, 7
4500, 0.9165, 0, 7
4593, 0.9165, 0, 7
4625, 0.9165, 0, 7
4718, 0.9165, 0, 8
4812, 0.9165, 0, 8
4875, 0.9165, 0, 8
4937, 0.9165, 0, 8
5031, 0.9165, 0, 8
5093, 0.9165, 0, 8
5187, 0.9165, 0, 8
5250, 0.9165, 0, 9
5312, 0.9165, 0, 9
5406, 0.9165, 0, 9
5468, 0.9165, 0, 9
5531, 0.9165, 0, 9
5593, 0.9165, 0, 10
5687, 0.936, 0, 10
5781, 0.9165, 0, 10
5812, 0.9165, 0, 10
5906, 0.936, 0, 11
5937, 0.9165, 0, 11
6062, 0.9165, 0, 11
6156, 0.9165, 0, 12
6218, 0.936, 0, 12
6250, 0.9165, 0, 12
6343, 0.936, 0, 12
6375, 0.936, 0, 14
6468, 0.936, 0, 14
6531, 0.936, 0, 14
6593, 0.936, 0, 15
6656, 0.936, 0, 16
6718, 0.936, 0, 16
6750, 0.936, 0, 17
6812, 0.936, 0, 17
6875, 0.936, 0, 17


2nd gear pull
RPM, O2Sensor, KnockSum, TimingAdv
2937, 0.897, 0, 9
2968, 0.897, 0, 9
3062, 0.897, 0, 9
3125, 0.897, 0, 9
3218, 0.897, 0, 9
3312, 0.897, 0, 7
3406, 0.897, 0, 7
3531, 0.897, 0, 7
3593, 0.897, 1, 7
3750, 0.897, 1, 7
3812, 0.897, 1, 5
3937, 0.9165, 1, 5
4062, 0.9165, 1, 5
4218, 0.9165, 0, 7
4343, 0.9165, 0, 7
4500, 0.9165, 0, 7
4625, 0.9165, 0, 7
4750, 0.9165, 0, 8
4906, 0.9165, 0, 8
5031, 0.9165, 0, 8
5218, 0.9165, 0, 9
5312, 0.9165, 0, 9
5468, 0.9165, 0, 9
5625, 0.9165, 0, 10
5750, 0.9165, 0, 10
5906, 0.9165, 0, 11
6031, 0.9165, 0, 11
6156, 0.9165, 0, 12
6312, 0.9165, 0, 12
6437, 0.9165, 0, 14
6531, 0.9165, 0, 15
6687, 0.9165, 0, 15
6812, 0.9165, 0, 17
6937, 0.9165, 0, 18
7031, 0.9165, 0, 18
7125, 0.936, 0, 18
7218, 0.936, 0, 19

 

Hotter air is less dense, so maybe that is helping a bit. Personally I'd still back off the tune a bit. To me even one or two knock counts at WOT is one or two too many.

l8r)

 

I will try to richen it up around 3700-4000 and see if the knock and timing retard will go away.

Is it ok to use second gear pulls for logging and tuning? I have always used 3rd gear, but it is kinda unsafe doing pulls to 80mph on public roads

Girlie

 

Normally I do a 4th gear pull to get more load on the car. But I was not getting on a freeway today.

 

I like to use 5th or 6th gear for engine safety but there are road safety issues.

Best place I set timing was a racing circuit, could beat on the car for 20 minutes at a time, all loads, all but top gear. All on a hot day. The timing ended up retarded, but this base map developed never blew up a car.