I will say the one thing I love about the zeitronix units is the fact that you can change the stoich afr via their narrowband sim... great for guys with stock ecu, running in closed loop on E85 that want a leaner than 14.7 idle and cruise AFR...

 

All of the Innovate WB devices do this as well. It is a great feature to have. I believe the PLX also has this.

 

MINES I was able to get the car out today to see what exactly was going on. I did a heater and then free air calibration and then drove the car around. before the car even heated up to operating temp, the LC1 was already pegged on 7.4. it did work for a bit then went down which would led me to think that its time to replace the sensor versus removing the unit and spending almost $400 versus a new sensors cost.. if the sensor works, great. it not, not so great lol

 

You must not have much experience with Widebands...

IMO, Innovate products are horrible. They never hold a calibration and have to be calibrated many times. Their sample rate is low. They have a really big failure ratio. Connection issues with Evoscan. Etc. Etc.

Zeitronix on the other hand works everytime, is basically the most consistent lower end WB on the market, connects to evoscan everytime, Never has to be calibrated (as it runs a calibration everytime it turned on), etc, etc.

And most everything you said in your second paragraph to try to discredit the Zeitronix is WRONG and just marketing used by Innovate to sell products.

BTW have you even used another wideband beside Innovate?? Im betting the answer is no, while I have experience with them both and other widebands.

 

lol

Out of six widebands I've seen with my own eyes - 4 worked and work perfectly without single issue (all four are Zt-2, one of them in my own EvoIX for the last 18 months or so and ~12k miles), one was DOA (AEM) and one required recalibration and other dancing around it to start showing anything reasonable (Innovate LC-1) Period

I have no idea how helpful and responsive Zeitronix support is - for me it is really much more important that I have no need to test this. I simply enjoy using reliable product, while you're praising ability of the support to help you solve problem swith their products via phone call.

PS I'm not selling anything anywhere, so I guess my opinion is highly unbiased

 

Hey man, It is entirely possible the sensor is bad. The DB gauge displaying 7.4 would indicate that the digital to analog converter not inputting more then minimum voltage, likely an error code in the LC-1. This could be a sensor issue. I am still going to recommend contacting Innovate if you continue to have this issue, it is likely easily remedied. Let me know what happens after you contact them.

 

Really?

LSU test bench at constant 20 degC gas temp and constant 14.7 PSI ambient.

New After 500hr test bench run After 2000hr test bench run

Calibrated measurement gas
for 24.99 AFR 24.99 ± .73 AFR 24.99 ± 1.47 AFR 24.99 ± 2.20 AFR

Calibrated measurement gas
for 11.76 AFR 11.76 ± .15 AFR 11.76 ± .29 AFR 11.76 ± .59 AFR

Source: Bosch Y 258 K01 005-000e technical document.

Feel free to contact Bosch and read said document for yourself.

I guess, if 1000 samples per second averaged 8 times is slow, on a DAC I might add. The thing is, it is not slow. In fact it is faster then what you will get on the D/A output. The Innovate products connect through MTS which is serial data right off of the DIGITAL sensor controller itself. IE as close to real time as you can get and faster then your software is going to log said data.



This is not possible, your calibration statement. The sensor would need a fixed reference gas to calibrate. This can not be done in the exhaust system. The Zeitronix does not calibrate. Period.

I am not trying to discredit Zeitronix, everything I mentioned about the capabilities of the Innovate products vs the Zeitronix product is true. One may chose to use whatever they are comfortable with, and may never have an issue. Your opinion differs and you are entitled to it.

Yes, the fact is I have, and I have stuck with Innovate because they are the fastest and most accurate. I will also say, as I have said previously if you read the entire thread, that the Innovate LC-1 has had issues in the past and much of the stigma is still out there; case in point yourself. But I have not had an issue with any of my recent installations and currently use the Innovate MTX-L product in my personal vehicle, if the closed loop function did not work, and it was not reliable my car would not be running.

 

You have been drinking the Innovate Kool Aid my friend.

Innovates REAL sample rate is like 12samples/sec, when Zetronix is 72samples/second. Innovate tries to say they have a fast samples rate, but they dont. Just more marketing.

Also, the Zetronix does have a calibration sequence it does when its turned on. You dont need "a fixed reference gas to calibrate." Even Innovate doesnt use "a fixed reference gas to calibrate", they do free air calibration, so you saying that makes no sense.

The things you mentioned are NOT true. They are Innovate marketing and only true on the Innovate forums.

Last, if Innovate products are so good, why is it, when one reads this thread, most every post about Innovate has to do with it having issues/problems (and they are still having issue/problem to this day, unlike you state), while every post about Zeitronix is about how they have no issues/problems.

 

The sample rate is defined by whatever you are logging the A/F serial/analog data with. The Innovate wideband devices themselves take in excess of 1000 samples per second and average this value 8 times over 1 second. This is the real sample rate period, this is not debatable. It is what it is.

No, it simply activates the heater element in the O2 sensor, this is not a calibration.

The sensor has a maximum range, (hardware limited) of 22.4 AFR. The term calibrate is actually not very good, it is more of a zeroing of the sensor. But everyone calls it a calibration so let's stick with that nomenclature. When the Innovate product asks one to "calibrate" the sensor for degradation or on a first installation, it is ignoring the calibration resistor on the sensor itself, (this has been explained several times) and referencing free air with an on board digital calibration circuit. No other product does this. Sensor degradation is NOT a gimmick it is a fact, same as your brake pads wearing out or your clutch slipping. It is also in fact, affected by altitude and atmospheric pressure.


Hmmm? No, those would be facts. As in, how the devices functions. Again, no debate here. Your argument here is simply no it does not. But that facts are, yes that is how the products function.

This is based on what? I rarely read a thread about anyone gushing about their wideband, regardless of make. Zeitronix is a very small company with limited market share. AEM/Innovate are the two largest brands on the market. To make such a statement would assume that in the last 8 years or however long innovate has been around the MAJORITY of the product produced has had issues. If that were the case, why are they still here? Why does my Innovate product, and every other Innovate product I have installed work just fine? Have I just been lucky? I doubt it.

 

Okay. It is useless talking to you. All you do is spew out all Innovates FALSE marketing infomation.

Keep drinking that Kool aid

Like I said, if you read this thread, you'll understand what wideband is better. I have just taken score and here are the results......

Innovate

How many users posted that they use it - 12

How many users posted that they had issues with it - 7

Zetronix

How many users posted that they use it - 9

How many users posted that they had issues with it - 0

AEM

How many users posted that they use it - 7

How many users posted that they had issues with it - 0

The results speak for themselves.

But Ill keep talking...

Innovate has said that their sample rate is 1000samples/sec, but no one every gets that good a sample rate when used. The best reported sample rates are 12samples/sec. This has been a topic on this board before and even Claus, the main Innovate guys, admitted it. Im not going to go though years of post to find the info, so help yourself.

Again, incorrect. The Zetronix goes though a calibration sequence to deal with degrading of the sensor.

Once again, everything your saying is false. Only in Innovates world is it true.

Its based on the data from this thread, that I posted above. And based on that data, you can easily see that Innovate products have the most issues, while Zeitronixs are basically issue-free.

 

Another great reason why Zetronix is the best

 

No Koolaid here my friend, it's ok to be a cheerleader, it is also your right to be wrong.

You are confusing MTS packet transfer with the actual O2 sensor sample rate. Which is indeed, 1000 samples per second averaged 8 times, for the 3rd time.
Your analog output can actually be slowed down if need be, this is a software option.

Here is the latest manual, could you please point this out for me?

http://www.zeitronix.com/installatio...structions.pdf

I can save you some time, it is not in there.

I find this entertaining and ironic, see previous response.

That is an awfully small sample demographic over a fairly large period of time to come to a conclusion like that, but if you insist. Feel free to run with that, but the fact is, what you are saying is not a fact. I have nothing against you personally, but seriously, it is not a great character trait to make blanket statements.

 

Answers in BOLD.

And besides all those facts/arguments/debates above, Zetronix is the only WB of the group that is made here in AMERICA. That alone makes it better then the competitors.

 

I explained MTS packets previously, this eluded you. The sample rate is 1000 samples per second. This is what you will see through your DAC output. Maybe you missed this previously, giving you the benefit of the doubt here. But I will say it again.


No, it does not. Zeitronix and pretty much every other company, except Innovate, use the Bosch CJ125 sensor control chip. This uses the FIXED calibration resistor on the LSU4.2 sensor. There is no debate here. The device does not do this, you are either confused or making things up. From what I have seen, I would believe either to be the case.

I believe, that you believe this. Which I guess is all that matters on the internet.


Really? 50 to 60%? I guess you have Innovate's annual sales figures, but I doubt it. Failure rates like that over a period of 8 years + would certainly put any other company out of business. They must be touched by the hand of god... But again, judging by some of your previous misinformation, you are either seriously confused or once again, making stuff up. I would believe either/or at this point.

Amazing. Just to make you aware, any electronic device period is made with components that are NOT made in the USA. capacitors, resistors, non volatile memory, etc. All Chinese, British, Israeli, Japanese, etc. Maybe you are referring to final assembly here in the USA? So is the Innovate product, not that it matters.

At this point, I will leave you be. You are a business, have a vested interest in the Zeitronix devices as a dealer, and I am sure you do what you do well. That is great, and I wish you no ill will. We are not going to see eye to eye on this, and this is also ok. I like my Innovate, you like your Zeitronix. There are others on here who may prefer neither of these products, competition is healthy. At the end of the day, use what you like and be happy.