Stew

iTrader: (11)

These are some logs and timing data from a 2003 Evo I've been co-driving in Auto-x lately.. We're experiencing some stumbling issues under higher RPM (5000-6500) and need to smooth it out.

The mods on the car in question are: 3" TBE, bigger FMIC, 720 injectors, HKS 272 cams, Greddy UICP, and it has been tuned for these mods but the timing maps have not been re-scaled. Stock turbo, stock bottom end, stock air intake box, stock LICP.

We're also experiencing a bit of boost creep, peak is around 22 and change in 3rd gear. The car is running a Blitz (EDIT: boost controller) which previously was set to 80% wastegate cycle and would peak at 21.5 psi or so, but started peaking at 23 psi. We turned down the wastegate cycle to 75% and now it is still creeping to 22 psi. I'm thinking that the added boost is throwing the ECU off the timing map, since the timing values that we're experiencing are not to be found anywhere, but I'll post some info up and see what you guys think...

Log:
RPM-------AirFlow--KnockSum---TimingAdv
3312.5----251.6---------0--------36
3343.75--169.83--------0--------43
3375------132.09--------0--------43
3375------125.8---------0--------43
3375------125.8---------0--------43
3250------119.51--------0--------43
3406.25--408.85--------0--------19
3125------484.33--------0--------31
3250------534.65--------0--------21
3500------578.68--------0--------18
3656.25--654.16--------0--------10
3750------754.8----------0--------8
3718.75--868.02--------0--------7
3656.25--981.24--------0--------7
3687.5----1075.59-------0--------5
3812.5----1201.39-------0--------5
3906.25--1239.13-------0--------7
4062.5----1251.71-------0--------5
4156.25--1283.16--------0--------5
4250------1295.74--------0--------7
4281.25--1295.74--------0--------13
4468.75--1289.45--------6--------7
4656.25--1390.09--------5--------13
4625------1371.22--------5--------10
4625------1402.67--------5--------13
4718.75--1408.96--------7--------9
4906.25--1465.57--------6--------4
5031.25--1509.6----------5--------5
5125------1497.02--------4--------3
5125------1534.76--------11--------4
5250------1597.66--------10--------7
5281.25--1578.79--------16--------4
5500------1566.21--------17--------1
5656.25--1603.95--------16--------1
5687.5----1603.95--------16--------2
5750------1603.95--------15--------14
5781.25--1603.95--------14--------2
5875------1603.95--------13--------2
5937.5----1603.95--------12--------3
5968.75--1603.95--------12--------6
6062.5----1603.95--------11--------6
6187.5----1603.95--------10--------6
6250------1603.95---------9--------9
6312.5----1603.95--------13--------7
6375------1603.95--------21--------8
6437.5----1603.95--------21--------5
6531.25--1603.95--------21--------7
6656.25--1603.95--------21--------7
6750------1603.95--------20--------12
6750------1603.95--------31--------9
6812.5----1603.95--------36--------5
6875------1603.95--------36--------5
6906.25--1603.95--------36--------13
7187.5----478.04----------30--------25
7281.25--427.72----------16--------32

The bolded section seems to have lower timing than I can find anywhere near the RPM range on the maps in his ROM. Here's a little bit of the timing info.

Timing:

Low Octane Timing Map:

-------120-140-160-180-200-220-240-260
5000-15---12---12--12---10---9----4----3
5500-15---14---14--13---11---9----4----4
6000-17---16---16--15---12---10--4----4

High Octane Timing Map:

-------120-140-160-180-200-220-240-260
5000-21---19---17--17---15---14----9----8
5500-23---22---19--18---16---14----9----9
6000-24---23---21--19---17---15----9----9


Unfortunately the Laptop we've been using for logging is rather slow (800 mhz) and only pulls 23-25 readings/second.

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

Do you know what your AFR's are? Your MAF looks to be reading kinda low, a stock/mildy modified car should be reading 1800hz or so.. Seems like you may be running lean and in lower load cells then you expect.. you could be in your low octane map, or at least your octane number is getting lower... With a knock count your showing, your definitely pulling timing, and sustained knock will alter the octane count..

If you have a wideband you need to have that data to see.. Also you could be getting a bit of heat soak too..

Ludikraut

iTrader: (17)

What gas and what is the AFR?

IMO, that's a lot of knock activity. I'd say you're either running too lean, or you're running too much timing.

l8r)

Stew

iTrader: (11)

93 Octane here in CT

The car does not have a wideband installed, which is making this difficult.

Doesn't the reading max out at 1603.95 Hz?? (thus won't be able to show 1800)

The Fuel maps are somewhat lean... the low octane map is 10.8-10.9-11.6 for 5000-5500-6000 at 260 load, and the high octane map is 11.2-11.2-11.5 for 5000-5500-6000 at 260 load. Those are the richest points in that RPM range, and are WAY leaner than the map I have for my 05 with intake/MBC/exhaust.

Mad_SB

iTrader: (8)

Well, It would not hurt to rescale up to 320 or so, but I doubt you are hitting those cells up top, could be in the mid range though. As for the knock, if your maf is reading low that will shift you to the left and into higher timing cells, either way it needs less timing and more fuel or less boost, or a combination of the three.

Gotta have a wideband though or it's just a guessing game.

nj1266

iTrader: (6)

How did you know the 10.8-10.9-11.6 etc.. numbers if the car does not have a wideband? These look like AFR numbers you are refering to!!!

Stew

iTrader: (11)

Those AFR numbers are pulled directly from the ECU's fuel maps. They are in the highest load blocks for 5000, 5500 and 6000 RPM on the high and low octane maps. They are not numbers pulled from Wideband or Narrowband feedback.

Noogles

iTrader: (-1)

the values set on the fuel maps are not actual AFR target.

My car when it had stock injectors was set to run 9.8-10.1 "target" and it corresponded to 11.3-11.5 depending on the rpm.

Add fuel and see if it goes away, my guess is you are going dangerously lean

Stew

iTrader: (11)

I'm going to see if we can get a Wideband on the car soon, and a faster laptop so we can log more parameters with atleast some efficiency.

I looked around yesterday, but is there any way to record boost with EvoScan?

RazorLab

iTrader: (8)

You are trying to run way too much timing. 13 degrees at 4200-4600 rpm????

it knocks like a son of a ***** and brings it down to 1 degree after that. I have never seen an EVO pull that much timing with a decent tune.

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

Duh, I realized that after I wrote it.. But I was looking more closely at the timing at around 4000 or so, which is way too aggressive at low/midrange.. Typically I'd see that at lower load sites than expected.. Plus he's definitely running leaner for other reasons (too lean a map, and whatnot)

You should update your logging to show octane number too, sustained knock like that would manifest itself in a lowering octane number too..

AlwaysinBoost

iTrader: (17)

x2

I would agree with the above statement that you are running dangerously lean.

On my car the 'target' A/F number on my fuel maps is usually 1-1.5x richer then my actual A/F. So if I had 11.0:1 listed it would translate into 12.0 - 12.5:1

Stew

iTrader: (11)

Thanks guys.

FYI: this is not a self-tuned map, it was professionally tuned. I believe 330 awhp and 300 awtq on the stock 03 turbo. Car felt great until recently.

Good suggestions though. I'm going to see if we can make a few fuel changes tonight and log with a better laptop with more readings.

RazorLab

iTrader: (8)

Looks like DF tune to me, trying to hit 7's 3500+

The car is knocking all over the place. Since its trying to hit 14 degrees at 4200-4600 it might be falling into a lower load column from a boost leak or something? What do the narrowband 02s look like?

Stew

iTrader: (11)

No apparent boost leak (peak at 22, taper to 19).

I don't have any O2 sensor readings from that log. Those 4 data points were the only I left on, in an effort to incease logging speed. I am going to get a run on a 3 ghz laptop tonight and I'll report back later.