antilag_200

iTrader: (49)

Jack,
I never got a chance to get back with you on the whole meter deal...
A little update...
Ended up throwing a 60-1 on my car with a DIY kit, so in the process, the 80mm draw through unit was replaced with a blow through unit...
last night I did a few runs, and logged them, unfortunately I was seeing some knock at 20 psi and pump gas... so I lowered the boost value until I had all my timing back (17*) and no knock , it ended up being 15 psi ... well during the logs, I was getting a max HZ value of 1377 utilizing the evoscan program... using some iterations... this equals approx 1000 kg/hr (these values just seem low to me ) so I had to install the Methanol kit that was laying in my basement... Now I am running 19 psi, , 6 counts of knock and the timing is 16* up top ... I just wanted to know what you were targeting as far as timing goes up top , as I was under the impression that due to the well designed heads of the evos.. the most timing that you want to have on the car is 17 ..?

(the PMAS team are really close to having a solution ... plus no more Karmen box.. so the price will be less too )

P.S.. during our little tuning/loggin session... we had to throw a bit of a bump in the curve (of the meter) about 60 % up the graph on the rich side... ) hopefully you can utilize that as well... ARE you still on the 30c curve ? and what was voltage out of the meter when you hit that HZ value ?...I beat it was 5 volts.. LMK

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

My car has always been very tolerant of timing, but my target has been around 17 degrees or so, I prefer to make the power with good timing and fueling than large amounts of boost (at least on the street) In reality there's so many variables that it ranges.. I think my current map would hit about 15 degrees if I ran it to redline..

Your airflow reading for 15psi should be similar to the 16g at 20psi, which means around 1600hz or so.. Not too far off..

In the process of rescaling the meter, I'm forced to now rescale my injectors again, but I have a usable peak value of around 2300hz or so at 20psi of boost, thats a much more normal sounding number for a GT35r. I'm actually surprised you ran the drawthrough mode for as long as you did.. There are just so many benefits to running blowthrough that I switched over early on..

The new electronics sound great, and should make peoples lives so much easier, especially if you can ultimately source the plug and play connector that I created for my setup. Unfortunately on my car, the meter itself is integrated into the upper intercooler pipe, and my electronics MUST be seperate from the meter, I have no choice, if I wanted to upgrade my meter/electronics, I'd have to switch back to my prototype (Ultimate Racing) setup.. If you can get me a setup to test, I can at least start getting calibration data out there for it, but I'm not too keen on switching pipes over (I will if I have to though )

PM me with anything you can get to me, including the pricing.. Your pricing structure will have a big impact on sales, but also using this setup will remove that last "excuse" that people use to discard the ECU in place of a standalone.

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

I did find that for the correct idle, I had to run about 45hz to get fuel trims in check, in doing that, the curve was VERY rich in the midrange and upper, the meter was originally custom scaled through my upper intercooler pipe for the flow it makes, so I'm not certain if its still 30c (they never sent me the data sheet when they flow tested it) Its output at 20psi is around 3.5v or so.. It has plenty of room left to read quite a bit higher, I was told it was calibrated to airflow of around 700hp (a curve used on a modified supercharged ford cobra) but that was all.. I took the MAF tuner off when I was able to get everything finally reading in a normal range and the MAF frequency ramp is pretty linear if boost was linear you could see it, but airflow does closely reflect the stock curve now. If it wasnt that the electronics are analog and not programmable, I'd probably be inclined to keep the unit forever (I purchased the only other kit that Ultimate Racing was known to have sold for electronic control unit spare parts)

Although I realize the integrated unit is great for most people, I don't see the two being integrated to be a huge savings, since there are so many great hot-wire based meters out there by companies like Granatelli and whatnot, you really are much better off keeping the electronics seperate from the meter, plus the ability to service it by just replacing a component. By making one unit, your introducing a single point of failure. This is also the reason I don't utilize the GM Maf translator feature in the ECU+.. I need to be able to remove any particular component and replace it easier, while having the ability to get the car running again, and I can now do that (just swap a stock MAF back on, or remove the ECU+, or swap the karmann box, etc..)

antilag_200

iTrader: (49)

Thats great news Jack.. My thoughts exactly on the timing... I would rather have all my timing than just overload it with boost.. hence the methanol last nigt (which was being placed on the car at 11.30 pm yeah my neighbours hate me)
To be completely honest.... the car performed really well with the draw through.. I thought that I would have problems like when the fans turn on it would mess with the sensor.. just like it did on my 1g back in the day.. but to my surprise with the evo.. I always had steady afr values and it never stalled either; when I would come to a stop (as I am venting with a tial).. It wanted to stall but never did.. Now with the blowthrough... It too is integrated directly into my pipe
here are a few pics (please excuse my rusty pipe I shall clean that up today







I do believe that customers in the future will be able to buy the meter in blow through form where the saddle viewed in the last pic is attached to a 3 inch straight tube (much like your old set up) that way it is up to the customer to decide placement.
I shall talk to the manufacturer and see what I can do as far as test pieces for you
also on a side note.. I am running 72 # injectors and we scaled the meter accordingly using that all with out the use of a global rescaler that used to be on the old karmen converter

edit just saw your post.. at idle for me the HZ value is right around 35 but my curve is also different.. as far as all being one unit...the only thing that is different about this newer setup is the elimination of the karmen Box.. the tuner box (small box with LEDs) is still on the car where we utilize the software... for more precise iterations of the curve... so customers in the end, once this is finalized will receive a 3 inch tube with the meter, harness, and the tuner box with software..

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

Oh I forgot to mention, my idle hz is NOW 37hz, thats where I'm getting the much more normal value of 2500hz at 20psi... However its lean (as it should be) due to my injector scaling within the ECU.. I would much rather match the stock values and do all the rescaling within the ECU, than make too many adjustments in the meter. It would make more sense to have the meter read exactly like stock for that reason (at least initially) and then the user can make changes for his needs, since not everyone wants to use reflashing for all of their tuning.

Since I use an ECU+ as a logger, I can make minor changes to the MAF curve using that instead, I just chose to work exclusively getting the meter dialed in so my maps more closely look like other peoples maps and they can relate to the data.

FWIW if I ran the 45-50hz value I ran previously to get that 3000hz reading, the airflow curve ramped pretty quickly, and it was in the range where it would throw a Rich Code in the ECU in low load driving even when you adjusted the maps, this was due to a combination of accelerator enrichment and the load reading higher than the car's actual VE using the stock values in the ECU's calibration.

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

Oh and thats excellent.. when you mentioned the box was integrated, I had thought you meant that it was with the meter tube.. LOL But the setup you have with the saddle is identical to mine. except my saddle is near the thermostat housing after the blowoff valve and closer to the throttle plates, there is a reason I did that, in making it as close as possible to the throttle blade, it allows better throttle response and drivability. The further the blowthrough meter is from the throttlebody, the laggier it is to throttle inputs.. But I left it just far enough away so I can add temp sensors for logging, and meth injection should I choose to run it. (I'm not running meth right now since I'm lobbying to get E85 out here and need to prove it can run correctly on it with only a retune)

antilag_200

iTrader: (49)

sweet, on my race car (the 1g ) I just tried to make sure that the meter was as far away from the BOV as possible, when I made my upper ic pipe for the evo I had not planned on putting a PMAS meter on it so this was the only location that I had a straight section that is why I placed the meter in that location... but yes that does make sense about having the meter closer to the TB..
the whole problem now is actually trying to compare values that I get to yours,,, as the curves on your meter is quite different than mine...

sorry this stuff just gets me excited about the future of this product..
.
p.s the only thing that is different between your meter and mine is the elimination of the karmen box otherwiser everything else (meter wise) is the same and that is what will be sold to the public in the future ..

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

Okay thats excellent.. I think the only real solution would be to try to get me the electronics so I can build a calibration for it from my data. I sponsor two cars along with mine, one is a stock turbo, one is an aftermarket turbo, and my car which has the largest turbo of the group for the moment. I would like to put one of these newer units on one of the sponsored cars too.

antilag_200

iTrader: (49)

Jack, let me see what I CAN do as far as price as well as set up... I am strictly just the distributor for PMAS.. so my hands are tied as far as price goes...As far as me "donating" meters out...I truthfully don't think that is feasible as I myself am a small company that has just started and that might hurt my books tremendously..
I will shoot you a price once I have talked with the manufacturer and we can see if that is feasible to you ... My only concern though is making sure that this stuff works before releasing it (in all conditions) as I want this to be something that the daily driver/weekend warrior type owner can use easily and effectively..
will keep you posted...

I guess a goal would be to set up a calibration in the maf that will support a range of horsepower for the vast variety of users... that way there will be minimal adjustment by the user...hence less of a chance for disaster .

another thing... as far as it being plug and play.. I really doubt that the manufacturer is going to have molds made so that the unit can directly plug into the stock evo mas plug... but I will propose that idea to them delicately

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

Cool.. I don't ask for freebies, so I have no problem paying for stuff.. If the manufacturer wants to work with me thats cool too as I dealt with the original company prior to this.

Anyway, you shouldn't have to have them make molds, they just need to have AMP match the part of the connector off a stock meter, AMP, Molex, or any of those companies typically manufacture MHI electronic components and should have the molds available once you match it. They usually have a minimum order to do a production run, hence the reason I never had it done.

awdgsx91

Jack, THis is Nick from P.M.A.S. I have some info everyone might find useful.


The first table is the mass flow data I got from flowing a stock EVO 8 maf and airbox. It was flowed on our sonic nozzle flowstand so the data should be accurate to 1/4% of flow.

The next table is where I converted it to volumetric flow.

One more thing, is everyone sure that the "maf scaling" table is load vs. calc. flow. and not actually the maf transfer function. The left column a/d counts (hz) and the right volumetric flow from the maf?

Just some questions.... let me know if I can help you guys out in any way.

Std temp degF 68
Std Press inHg 29.9295
Std Rel Humidity 0.36
Sat. Vapor press @ 68F 17.54

Test temp degF 62.66
Test Press inHg 29.629 Lancer Evo VIII Air meter data curves
test Rel Humidity 0.1595
Sat. Vapor press @ 62.66F 14.72

Mass air flow curve
Kg/hr SCFM Freq Hz
1368 658.8008668 2445
1163 560.0770527 1961
963 463.7611365 1566
750 361.1846858 1350
500 240.7897905 826
250 120.3948953 414
150 72.23693715 254
100 48.1579581 178
70 33.71057067 126
38.6 18.58897183 71.5
21.1 10.16132916 41.3
14 6.742114134 28.2

Volumetric flow curve
ACFM Freq Hz
570.2285104 2445
484.7776006 1961
401.4108593 1566
312.6252798 1350
208.4168532 826
104.2084266 414
62.52505597 254
41.68337064 178
29.17835945 126
16.08978107 71.5
8.795191206 41.3
5.83567189 28.2

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

Hey.. your still around! Cool, send me some contact info.. if I knew you were still part of PMAS I would have called you..

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

Thats interesting.. That basically means the MAF itself will stop reading correctly at airflow levels required for a big turbo..

On the other hand, the ECU will allow input well over 3000hz as far as I have been able to determine.

I guess an upgraded MAF is really something that might be necessary for some of you guys.

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

Oh, and if you get a chance, sign onto my Forum www.aktivematrix.com and post your question there, we have a hardcore ECU Disassembly think-tank going on and they can answer very specific questions about the different values and how their handled.

awdgsx91

Lol, not only am I there, I own half of it.

I'm not sure exactly where the stock maf starts to stop shedding yet. I will crank one up on the flow stand tomorrow and see. My stand will flow 4900 cfm so I'm sure I can find out.

Also, when I curve fitted the values I got from the maf, the shape was a little goofy so I am going to get in it further tomorrow.