EVO IX exhausts and a few more BR330-350's...
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Joined: Aug 2005
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thanks for posting david. i am comparing that run (my car!) 
to hks's dyno run of an evo IX from a month or so ago. (see below)
http://www.hksusa.com/images_products/2878.jpg
i am not sure what type of dyno HKS has... but, would you say your run is a comparable base run?
to hks's dyno run of an evo IX from a month or so ago. (see below)http://www.hksusa.com/images_products/2878.jpg
i am not sure what type of dyno HKS has... but, would you say your run is a comparable base run?
Could the IX be reading about the same as the VIII because the engine on the IX isn't fully broken in yet, so it's not putting down all the power. How many miles were on the VIII when it was dynoed?????
Originally Posted by EVO316
Could the IX be reading about the same as the VIII because the engine on the IX isn't fully broken in yet, so it's not putting down all the power. How many miles were on the VIII when it was dynoed?????
I notice that the torque curve on the 06 has much less of a spike and is flat as a pancake compared to the 05. Also the 06 has more low end power. I wonder if that is due to MIVEC changing the intake cam timeing or if the new style turbo spools up sooner.
Hey Dave, can you post up a comparison chart that shows the boost output VS RPM for both cars on the dyno?
Thanks,
Keith
Originally Posted by davidbuschur
Here is a comparison of a typical 2005 EVO8 on our dyno against a brand new 2006 EVO9 on our dyno.
As you can see, the power is basically exactly the same.
As you will also note our MD reads quite a bit lower than a dynojunk dyno....sorry dynojet.
Actually reads about 63 less HP and 55 ft lbs less another dynojet in this state. That is substantial, actually it is rediculous.
Even on our old 2WD Dynojet would only read between 237 and 256 reading only to the front wheels of the 2003 EVO's.
This explains a lot in the world of HP numbers being advertised and using them to try and sell parts.
I am suprised at the dyno sheet, no gains over the '05's, no difference in the actual shape of the curve from the MIVEC. Very odd.
We dyno'd two IX's so far, both sheets are basically identical, within 1-2 hp. So it isn't that we have one weak IX here.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Who cares about the number?
As a customer, I don't really think it's very professional to go bashing other guys out there just because you have something that's a little different. AFAIK, AMS just got a "Dynojunk" dyno. Considering they have turned out the fastest Evo's in the US (I don't see a Buschur anything doing 156mph, unless you count Shep's 1G), would you care to comment on what kind of "junk" they put out "just to sell parts"?
I'm a strong believer in the fact that a product should speak for itself, so why interrupt? Not very professional, IMO.
But no one asked me, heh.
As a customer, I don't really think it's very professional to go bashing other guys out there just because you have something that's a little different. AFAIK, AMS just got a "Dynojunk" dyno. Considering they have turned out the fastest Evo's in the US (I don't see a Buschur anything doing 156mph, unless you count Shep's 1G), would you care to comment on what kind of "junk" they put out "just to sell parts"?
I'm a strong believer in the fact that a product should speak for itself, so why interrupt? Not very professional, IMO.
But no one asked me, heh.
The HKS dyno sheet looks to have been run on a Dynojet, that looks like a Dynojet chart to me.
Joe, you are right, nobody asked you
I didn't directly bash anyone and if you want to take it that way it's all good. I am simply making references to what I KNOW. It isn't a matter of "something that's a little different" it's a matter of the tuning that is done on a Dynojet is way off, I know, remember-I owned one before all these other shops you are referring to. I was smart enough to finally throw in the towel and sell it and buy a better dyno.
Dynojet is now making a dyno that can load the car and simulate real racing/road conditions. I am hoping if AMS actually bought a Dynojet that they ordered that option.
Also since you must obviously be in the dark Joe, I will remind you that we have built 4g63's that have gone over 156 mph for quite a while. If you don't recall I can remind you that our shop was the first to break the 11, 10, 9, 8 and 7 second barriers using these engines.
As for AMS going 156 mph in their AWD EVO, yes that is faster than we have built an EVO to go to date. We haven't attempted to build an EVO that fast YET, I will point out that our EVO has gone as fast (since you are referring to MPH) as any other GT35R equipped EVO. If you want to compare trap speeds either keep it all relative or we can use any combination as long as it is a 4g63.
"I'm a strong believer in the fact that a product should speak for itself, so why interrupt? Not very professional, IMO."
The above is your quote, as I am in my own topic voicing my own opinions I was not the one that interrupted anything, you were.
Thanks for the input it gives me a chance to voice even more of my opinions.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Joe, you are right, nobody asked you
I didn't directly bash anyone and if you want to take it that way it's all good. I am simply making references to what I KNOW. It isn't a matter of "something that's a little different" it's a matter of the tuning that is done on a Dynojet is way off, I know, remember-I owned one before all these other shops you are referring to. I was smart enough to finally throw in the towel and sell it and buy a better dyno.Dynojet is now making a dyno that can load the car and simulate real racing/road conditions. I am hoping if AMS actually bought a Dynojet that they ordered that option.
Also since you must obviously be in the dark Joe, I will remind you that we have built 4g63's that have gone over 156 mph for quite a while. If you don't recall I can remind you that our shop was the first to break the 11, 10, 9, 8 and 7 second barriers using these engines.
As for AMS going 156 mph in their AWD EVO, yes that is faster than we have built an EVO to go to date. We haven't attempted to build an EVO that fast YET, I will point out that our EVO has gone as fast (since you are referring to MPH) as any other GT35R equipped EVO. If you want to compare trap speeds either keep it all relative or we can use any combination as long as it is a 4g63.
"I'm a strong believer in the fact that a product should speak for itself, so why interrupt? Not very professional, IMO."
The above is your quote, as I am in my own topic voicing my own opinions I was not the one that interrupted anything, you were.
Thanks for the input it gives me a chance to voice even more of my opinions.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Going back to what this thread is orginally about. David, you said that your current evo 8 exhaust fits the evo 9, does this include the downpipe as well???? Also, I pm'ed about pics of the 2 problems you stated the 9 has due to a head sheild and hanger. I know you are a very busy, but could you post those pics please. And how much trouble is it to remove the heatsheild and hanger that prevent your 3in exhaust from being installed.
EVO316,
I did not get a chance to get pics. Yes, the entire system fits fine except for the few small things I mentioned. It is easy to take care of, a hack saw or small die grinder will do the trick.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
I did not get a chance to get pics. Yes, the entire system fits fine except for the few small things I mentioned. It is easy to take care of, a hack saw or small die grinder will do the trick.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Originally Posted by davidbuschur
Hello,
Well we are in the process of building the first BR330 and BR350 packages on two brand new EVO IX's. The BR350 is at the shop now, the other EVO will be coming in tomorrow to install the BR330 kit on.
Our exhaust fits the EVO IX just as the EVO8. Some changes to the car are going to make the installation just a little bit more difficult though.
The EVO 9 has the 02 sensor installed directly into the cat, on the top of it. This makes the wire routing run on top of the exhaust which the factory has built in some hangers for the wiring. One of these hangers bolts to the flange at the back of the cat. This hanger will not go around a 3" diameter pipe. SO when you guys see someone in the future saying their exhaust goes right no you can guess they have a reducer in their catback pipe. We don't believe in stinking reducers! The solution is simple, you have to simply cut the lower half of this two bolt bracket off. Then you re-install the bracket on the upper hole to hold the 02 sensor wiring. The other problem is the factory has not decided, for some odd reason, to install a small heat shield on the first carrier bearing. No idea what they did this for, never in 17 years have I seen a problem with a carrier bearing from heat from an exhaust. Anyway, this small shield is held on by one bolt and one stud. The stud hits a 3" diameter tube. So this heatshield needs to be removed, this requires cutting this small stud off.
What I am saying is you will need either a normal hacksaw for these two quick mods or if you have better tools a small air power cut off wheel works very quickly. Simple.
I don't see re-designing the system as the fitment is perfect. The hanger for the wiring would require supplying a new custom hanger or reducing our system size, and that won't happen.
The turbo is nice, looks to be exactly the same as the '04's except for the compressor cover which is much thicker. Car has two "cam" sensor now, one for the MIVEC on the intake cam. Car also has a new oil feed off the back of the engine, also for the MIVEC. The new valve cover in my opinion is not as good looking as the '03-05's. Everything else we have installed on the car has fit perfectly. I/c pipes, MAF pipe, filter kit, exhaust etc.
Thanks for reading.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Well we are in the process of building the first BR330 and BR350 packages on two brand new EVO IX's. The BR350 is at the shop now, the other EVO will be coming in tomorrow to install the BR330 kit on.
Our exhaust fits the EVO IX just as the EVO8. Some changes to the car are going to make the installation just a little bit more difficult though.
The EVO 9 has the 02 sensor installed directly into the cat, on the top of it. This makes the wire routing run on top of the exhaust which the factory has built in some hangers for the wiring. One of these hangers bolts to the flange at the back of the cat. This hanger will not go around a 3" diameter pipe. SO when you guys see someone in the future saying their exhaust goes right no you can guess they have a reducer in their catback pipe. We don't believe in stinking reducers! The solution is simple, you have to simply cut the lower half of this two bolt bracket off. Then you re-install the bracket on the upper hole to hold the 02 sensor wiring. The other problem is the factory has not decided, for some odd reason, to install a small heat shield on the first carrier bearing. No idea what they did this for, never in 17 years have I seen a problem with a carrier bearing from heat from an exhaust. Anyway, this small shield is held on by one bolt and one stud. The stud hits a 3" diameter tube. So this heatshield needs to be removed, this requires cutting this small stud off.
What I am saying is you will need either a normal hacksaw for these two quick mods or if you have better tools a small air power cut off wheel works very quickly. Simple.
I don't see re-designing the system as the fitment is perfect. The hanger for the wiring would require supplying a new custom hanger or reducing our system size, and that won't happen.
The turbo is nice, looks to be exactly the same as the '04's except for the compressor cover which is much thicker. Car has two "cam" sensor now, one for the MIVEC on the intake cam. Car also has a new oil feed off the back of the engine, also for the MIVEC. The new valve cover in my opinion is not as good looking as the '03-05's. Everything else we have installed on the car has fit perfectly. I/c pipes, MAF pipe, filter kit, exhaust etc.
Thanks for reading.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Just curious to know if you think a MIVEC swap would be feasible in the future?
What about the new oil feed? Would that be transferrable in the event that we were able to swap or is that built into the IX block?
I don't know why you would want to add the MIVEC to an older engine. We did some dyno testing and I don't see any gains. If anything I think switching the MIVEC over to the older stuff is going to be more common.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
VANOS is a combined hydraulic and mechanical camshaft control device managed by the car's DME engine management system.
The VANOS system is based on an adjustment mechanism that can modify the position of the intake camshaft versus the crankshaft. Double-VANOS adds an adjustment of the intake and outlet camshafts.
VANOS operates on the intake camshaft in accordance with engine speed and accelerator pedal position. At the lower end of the engine-speed scale, the intake valves are opened later, which improves idling quality and smoothness. At moderate engine speeds, the intake valves open much earlier, which boosts torque and permits exhaust gas re-circulation inside the combustion chambers, reducing fuel consumption and exhaust emissions. Finally, at high engine speeds, intake valve opening is once again delayed, so that full power can be developed.
VANOS significantly enhances emission management, increases output and torque, and offers better idling quality and fuel economy. The latest version of VANOS is double-VANOS, used in the new M3.
VANOS was first introduced in 1992 on the BMW M50 engine used in the 5 Series.
Here's how it works:
In overhead cam engines, the cams are connected to the crankshaft by either a belt or chain and gears. In BMW VANOS motors there is a chain and some sprockets.
The crankshaft drives a sprocket on the exhaust cam, and the exhaust cam sprocket is bolted to the exhaust cam. A second set of teeth moves a second chain that goes across to the intake cam. The big sprocket on the intake cam is not bolted to the cam, for it has a big hole in the middle. Inside the hole is a helical set of teeth. On the end of the cam is a gear that is also helical on the outside, but it's too small to connect to the teeth on the inside of the big sprocket. There is a little cup of metal with helical teeth to match the cam on the inside and to match the sprocket on the outside. The V (Variable) in VANOS is due to the helical nature of the teeth. The cup gear is moved by a hydraulic mechanism that works on oil pressure controlled by the DME.
At idle, the cam timing is retarded. Just off idle, the DME energizes a solenoid which allows oil pressure to move that cup gear to advance the cam 12.5 degrees at midrange, and then at about 5000 rpm, it allows it to come back to the original position. The greater advance causes better cylinder fill at mid rpms for better torque. The noise some people hear is the result of tolerances that make the sprocket wiggle a bit as the cup gear is moved in or out.
Double VANOS
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Double-VANOS (double-variable camshaft control) significantly improves torque since valve timing on both the intake and outlet camshafts are adjusted to the power required from the engine as a function of gas pedal position and engine speed.
On most BMW engines that use a single VANOS, the timing of the intake cam is only changed at two distinct rpm points, while on the double-VANOS system, the timing of the intake and exhaust cams are continuously variable throughout the majority of the rpm range.
With double-VANOS, the opening period of the intake valves are extended by 12 degrees with an increase in valve lift by 0.9 mm.
Double-VANOS requires very high oil pressure in order to adjust the camshafts very quickly and accurately, ensuring better torque at low engine speeds and better power at high speeds. With the amount of un-burnt residual gases being reduced, engine idle is improved. Special engine management control maps for the warm-up phase help the catalytic converter reach operating temperature sooner.
Double-VANOS improves low rpm power, flattens the torque curve, and widens the powerband for a given set of camshafts. The double-VANOS engine has a 450 rpm lower torque peak and a 200 rpm higher horsepower peak than single-VANOS, and the torque curve is improved between 1500 - 3800 rpm. At the same time, the torque does not fall off as fast past the horsepower peak.
The advantage of double-VANOS is that the system controls the flow of hot exhaust gases into the intake manifold individually for all operating conditions. This is referred to as "internal" exhaust gas re-circulation, allowing very fine dosage of the amount of exhaust gas recycled.
While the engine is warming up, VANOS improves the fuel/air mixture and helps to quickly warm up the catalytic converter to its normal operating temperature. When the engine is idling, the system keeps idle speeds smooth and consistent thanks to the reduction of exhaust gas re-circulation to a minimum. Under part load, exhaust gas re-circulation is increased to a much higher level, allowing the engine to run on a wider opening angle of the throttle butterfly in the interest of greater fuel economy. Under full load, the system switches back to a low re-circulation volume providing the cylinders with as much oxygen as possible.
The VANOS system is based on an adjustment mechanism that can modify the position of the intake camshaft versus the crankshaft. Double-VANOS adds an adjustment of the intake and outlet camshafts.
VANOS operates on the intake camshaft in accordance with engine speed and accelerator pedal position. At the lower end of the engine-speed scale, the intake valves are opened later, which improves idling quality and smoothness. At moderate engine speeds, the intake valves open much earlier, which boosts torque and permits exhaust gas re-circulation inside the combustion chambers, reducing fuel consumption and exhaust emissions. Finally, at high engine speeds, intake valve opening is once again delayed, so that full power can be developed.
VANOS significantly enhances emission management, increases output and torque, and offers better idling quality and fuel economy. The latest version of VANOS is double-VANOS, used in the new M3.
VANOS was first introduced in 1992 on the BMW M50 engine used in the 5 Series.
Here's how it works:
In overhead cam engines, the cams are connected to the crankshaft by either a belt or chain and gears. In BMW VANOS motors there is a chain and some sprockets.
The crankshaft drives a sprocket on the exhaust cam, and the exhaust cam sprocket is bolted to the exhaust cam. A second set of teeth moves a second chain that goes across to the intake cam. The big sprocket on the intake cam is not bolted to the cam, for it has a big hole in the middle. Inside the hole is a helical set of teeth. On the end of the cam is a gear that is also helical on the outside, but it's too small to connect to the teeth on the inside of the big sprocket. There is a little cup of metal with helical teeth to match the cam on the inside and to match the sprocket on the outside. The V (Variable) in VANOS is due to the helical nature of the teeth. The cup gear is moved by a hydraulic mechanism that works on oil pressure controlled by the DME.
At idle, the cam timing is retarded. Just off idle, the DME energizes a solenoid which allows oil pressure to move that cup gear to advance the cam 12.5 degrees at midrange, and then at about 5000 rpm, it allows it to come back to the original position. The greater advance causes better cylinder fill at mid rpms for better torque. The noise some people hear is the result of tolerances that make the sprocket wiggle a bit as the cup gear is moved in or out.
Double VANOS
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Double-VANOS (double-variable camshaft control) significantly improves torque since valve timing on both the intake and outlet camshafts are adjusted to the power required from the engine as a function of gas pedal position and engine speed.
On most BMW engines that use a single VANOS, the timing of the intake cam is only changed at two distinct rpm points, while on the double-VANOS system, the timing of the intake and exhaust cams are continuously variable throughout the majority of the rpm range.
With double-VANOS, the opening period of the intake valves are extended by 12 degrees with an increase in valve lift by 0.9 mm.
Double-VANOS requires very high oil pressure in order to adjust the camshafts very quickly and accurately, ensuring better torque at low engine speeds and better power at high speeds. With the amount of un-burnt residual gases being reduced, engine idle is improved. Special engine management control maps for the warm-up phase help the catalytic converter reach operating temperature sooner.
Double-VANOS improves low rpm power, flattens the torque curve, and widens the powerband for a given set of camshafts. The double-VANOS engine has a 450 rpm lower torque peak and a 200 rpm higher horsepower peak than single-VANOS, and the torque curve is improved between 1500 - 3800 rpm. At the same time, the torque does not fall off as fast past the horsepower peak.
The advantage of double-VANOS is that the system controls the flow of hot exhaust gases into the intake manifold individually for all operating conditions. This is referred to as "internal" exhaust gas re-circulation, allowing very fine dosage of the amount of exhaust gas recycled.
While the engine is warming up, VANOS improves the fuel/air mixture and helps to quickly warm up the catalytic converter to its normal operating temperature. When the engine is idling, the system keeps idle speeds smooth and consistent thanks to the reduction of exhaust gas re-circulation to a minimum. Under part load, exhaust gas re-circulation is increased to a much higher level, allowing the engine to run on a wider opening angle of the throttle butterfly in the interest of greater fuel economy. Under full load, the system switches back to a low re-circulation volume providing the cylinders with as much oxygen as possible.
Next week, we were planning on dyno'ing our Evo's. We have a 05 and 06 MR. Im real curious to see what happens... My thoughts are on the 05, as recently, I finally installed some gauges, and finally got to see how much it was boosting.
The stock 06 MR gauge will ping 1.25 or so, and taper off. The 05 is claiming 1.4, and seems to pull a hair harder... Also thought that the MR gauge could be inaccurate. The 05 is equipped with Defi's.
The stock 06 MR gauge will ping 1.25 or so, and taper off. The 05 is claiming 1.4, and seems to pull a hair harder... Also thought that the MR gauge could be inaccurate. The 05 is equipped with Defi's.