The Truth about Speed Density on Stock ECU?
Late December and early January, we often find nothing but clear skys and bone chilling temps. I know the Colorado guys have it pretty bad too.
Last edited by 03whitegsr; Sep 27, 2010 at 04:01 PM.
Anybody living in the rockies with places worth skiing at? I know that's why I see those temps anyway. I realize it's not something that most have to face, but it litterally took probably 5 minutes to get my car to start in those conditions and I got lucky my battery held up. When it's that cold, it starts to make you pretty nervous when the car won't start and the sun is down...
Late December and early January, we often find nothing but clear skys and bone chilling temps. I know the Colorado guys have it pretty bad too.
Late December and early January, we often find nothing but clear skys and bone chilling temps. I know the Colorado guys have it pretty bad too.
I just looked up Park City and it says it hit around -15 as the lowest last year. Which is still cold as hell.
Either way, I don't live where you live so I'll believe you. If it hits -30, it does, and good lord that sucks for you!
Doesn't E85 and oil starting getting *really* thick in those kind of temps?
- Bryan
Yes, it really gets THAT cold during parts of the year, and yes, it is miserable. Mostly because if it is that cold, it isn't snowing. High and dry...
Like I said though, it's not something that everybody is going to run into. Just thought I would mention it though so nobody that encounters those conditions is surprised when it happens.
,,,,,,
But, as far as overall drivability and WOT tuning, ECU SD performs flawlessly and in most cases, especially for highly modified cars with big turbos, aggressive cams, etc, it will run much smoother than the stock MAF for several reasons. Also, it removes the MAF as a restiction and allows running a bigger, smoother intake pipe. So, drivability and power should be up.
If you want more information, just read up in the ECUFlash subforum. I, as well as many others that have run and are running ECU SD, are there and can provide any more info.
^^^^ This guy knows his stuff!!!
To the op-- What you need to do is drive a properly tuned SD evo and take note of the differences for yourself.
I remember there was a time when the common notion was that stock ecu's can't handle injectors larger than 880cc's...
Now all of the sudden everyone is on that bandwagon too!Work with a reputable tuner that knows the system well and you won't be dissappointed.
We have tested elevation change from tune point to 6,000 feet on the way to the mountain. Now for what its worth it still started and drove correctly but I dont rip on it in the snow so I didnt doublecheck to see what the total AFR change was.
The main reason no one really seems to do SD is the same reason I dont do ECU controlled boost (please dont laugh), it doesnt make sense to them and they give up.
At the Shootout this year there was a particular attempt at SD that comes to mind that took 6 hours or so and still wasnt done. I do most cars in 30 min or less. One I have LOTS of basemaps, but more importantly I understand exactly what each function does and I do a lot of cars in SD so I have been able to learn very fast.
Alot of tuning is tuner attitude, then comes skill. If I dont like something I dont apply myself, end result is only enough to get it done and a bad taste in my mouth. E-manage comes to mind as I hate imaginary numbers (nothing is linear). I can do it and make it work well, but I prefer not too which is why I am going to put one in my Lexus. Force myself to do it, learn it like I did the stock ECU, MIVEC, DSMlink, SD, etc.
Some in the ECUflash forum have made it needlessly complicated in how they approach to set it up should be done. I throw a sensor in and go. Why? Because I have logged fuel temp at varying times of year and extremes, I have logged engine bay temps (MAF) since we had datalogging, I have logged post turbo MAT. I know what happens, I know what I can get away with, I know how to keep it simple. This brings me the cliffs of my rant.
Cliffs- K.I.S.S. (not the band, but they rock too)
The main reason no one really seems to do SD is the same reason I dont do ECU controlled boost (please dont laugh), it doesnt make sense to them and they give up.
At the Shootout this year there was a particular attempt at SD that comes to mind that took 6 hours or so and still wasnt done. I do most cars in 30 min or less. One I have LOTS of basemaps, but more importantly I understand exactly what each function does and I do a lot of cars in SD so I have been able to learn very fast.
Alot of tuning is tuner attitude, then comes skill. If I dont like something I dont apply myself, end result is only enough to get it done and a bad taste in my mouth. E-manage comes to mind as I hate imaginary numbers (nothing is linear). I can do it and make it work well, but I prefer not too which is why I am going to put one in my Lexus. Force myself to do it, learn it like I did the stock ECU, MIVEC, DSMlink, SD, etc.
Some in the ECUflash forum have made it needlessly complicated in how they approach to set it up should be done. I throw a sensor in and go. Why? Because I have logged fuel temp at varying times of year and extremes, I have logged engine bay temps (MAF) since we had datalogging, I have logged post turbo MAT. I know what happens, I know what I can get away with, I know how to keep it simple. This brings me the cliffs of my rant.
Cliffs- K.I.S.S. (not the band, but they rock too)
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ec...ched-roms.html
Step 2a
I see what aaron is saying about shops not wanting to do it. I switched over to SD over a month ago and still doing some fine tuning here or there. It is A LOT more work then just getting a car tuned for WOT pulls.
My car was tuned at Spec OPS motorsports in NC on SD. I moved to Lawton Oklahoma from fayetteville NC and there was a change in elevation by 900ft...Car still runs great with no issues at all.
We have tested elevation change from tune point to 6,000 feet on the way to the mountain. Now for what its worth it still started and drove correctly but I dont rip on it in the snow so I didnt doublecheck to see what the total AFR change was.
The main reason no one really seems to do SD is the same reason I dont do ECU controlled boost (please dont laugh), it doesnt make sense to them and they give up.
At the Shootout this year there was a particular attempt at SD that comes to mind that took 6 hours or so and still wasnt done. I do most cars in 30 min or less. One I have LOTS of basemaps, but more importantly I understand exactly what each function does and I do a lot of cars in SD so I have been able to learn very fast.
Alot of tuning is tuner attitude, then comes skill. If I dont like something I dont apply myself, end result is only enough to get it done and a bad taste in my mouth. E-manage comes to mind as I hate imaginary numbers (nothing is linear). I can do it and make it work well, but I prefer not too which is why I am going to put one in my Lexus. Force myself to do it, learn it like I did the stock ECU, MIVEC, DSMlink, SD, etc.
Some in the ECUflash forum have made it needlessly complicated in how they approach to set it up should be done. I throw a sensor in and go. Why? Because I have logged fuel temp at varying times of year and extremes, I have logged engine bay temps (MAF) since we had datalogging, I have logged post turbo MAT. I know what happens, I know what I can get away with, I know how to keep it simple. This brings me the cliffs of my rant.
Cliffs- K.I.S.S. (not the band, but they rock too)
The main reason no one really seems to do SD is the same reason I dont do ECU controlled boost (please dont laugh), it doesnt make sense to them and they give up.
At the Shootout this year there was a particular attempt at SD that comes to mind that took 6 hours or so and still wasnt done. I do most cars in 30 min or less. One I have LOTS of basemaps, but more importantly I understand exactly what each function does and I do a lot of cars in SD so I have been able to learn very fast.
Alot of tuning is tuner attitude, then comes skill. If I dont like something I dont apply myself, end result is only enough to get it done and a bad taste in my mouth. E-manage comes to mind as I hate imaginary numbers (nothing is linear). I can do it and make it work well, but I prefer not too which is why I am going to put one in my Lexus. Force myself to do it, learn it like I did the stock ECU, MIVEC, DSMlink, SD, etc.
Some in the ECUflash forum have made it needlessly complicated in how they approach to set it up should be done. I throw a sensor in and go. Why? Because I have logged fuel temp at varying times of year and extremes, I have logged engine bay temps (MAF) since we had datalogging, I have logged post turbo MAT. I know what happens, I know what I can get away with, I know how to keep it simple. This brings me the cliffs of my rant.
Cliffs- K.I.S.S. (not the band, but they rock too)
As for temp changes, I'll offer this...
Back in November (20-30deg temps) I tuned a stock turbo evo ix on sd that trapped 117mph.... In January he moved down to Orlando. He went to a track in Florida in April (80-90deg) and trapped 117mph. No changes to the map.
We have tested elevation change from tune point to 6,000 feet on the way to the mountain. Now for what its worth it still started and drove correctly but I dont rip on it in the snow so I didnt doublecheck to see what the total AFR change was.
The main reason no one really seems to do SD is the same reason I dont do ECU controlled boost (please dont laugh), it doesnt make sense to them and they give up.
At the Shootout this year there was a particular attempt at SD that comes to mind that took 6 hours or so and still wasnt done. I do most cars in 30 min or less. One I have LOTS of basemaps, but more importantly I understand exactly what each function does and I do a lot of cars in SD so I have been able to learn very fast.
Alot of tuning is tuner attitude, then comes skill. If I dont like something I dont apply myself, end result is only enough to get it done and a bad taste in my mouth. E-manage comes to mind as I hate imaginary numbers (nothing is linear). I can do it and make it work well, but I prefer not too which is why I am going to put one in my Lexus. Force myself to do it, learn it like I did the stock ECU, MIVEC, DSMlink, SD, etc.
Some in the ECUflash forum have made it needlessly complicated in how they approach to set it up should be done. I throw a sensor in and go. Why? Because I have logged fuel temp at varying times of year and extremes, I have logged engine bay temps (MAF) since we had datalogging, I have logged post turbo MAT. I know what happens, I know what I can get away with, I know how to keep it simple. This brings me the cliffs of my rant.
Cliffs- K.I.S.S. (not the band, but they rock too)
The main reason no one really seems to do SD is the same reason I dont do ECU controlled boost (please dont laugh), it doesnt make sense to them and they give up.
At the Shootout this year there was a particular attempt at SD that comes to mind that took 6 hours or so and still wasnt done. I do most cars in 30 min or less. One I have LOTS of basemaps, but more importantly I understand exactly what each function does and I do a lot of cars in SD so I have been able to learn very fast.
Alot of tuning is tuner attitude, then comes skill. If I dont like something I dont apply myself, end result is only enough to get it done and a bad taste in my mouth. E-manage comes to mind as I hate imaginary numbers (nothing is linear). I can do it and make it work well, but I prefer not too which is why I am going to put one in my Lexus. Force myself to do it, learn it like I did the stock ECU, MIVEC, DSMlink, SD, etc.
Some in the ECUflash forum have made it needlessly complicated in how they approach to set it up should be done. I throw a sensor in and go. Why? Because I have logged fuel temp at varying times of year and extremes, I have logged engine bay temps (MAF) since we had datalogging, I have logged post turbo MAT. I know what happens, I know what I can get away with, I know how to keep it simple. This brings me the cliffs of my rant.
Cliffs- K.I.S.S. (not the band, but they rock too)
i think a lot of people saying the drivability with SD is so much better then with MAF is because their cars aren't running right on MAF in the first place. unless the setup is not condusive to MAF (i.e. very large cams), i haven't seen a SD car on any type of ecu (stock, AEM, autronic), including a english racing tuned SD car do any better then a properly setup MAF car. IMO, SD is only worth it for those with tons of power, those who can't live without a VTA BOV, and those with extremely large cams.
i would agree that more power can be made, but i would say that power difference is found well above 600whp.
i guess it takes a lot to impress me, but i want a customers car to drive off and idle perfect, startup perfect, and make good power.
my daily driver car is MAF, and so is my race car. although i may be converting my race car to SD because i can't seem to find a BOV that can hold the boost and not flutter part throttle. also it is a hard car to idle. the race car did make 600whp EASILY at 28psi with the MAF. our shop drag car has a foward facing turbo tuned on stock ecu with SD makes roughly 700whp on that same dyno (mustang). it is a daily driven full interior evo, legitimately passed emmissions testing too. thats the kind of applications i think it has its place for.
last, it is unbelievable how poorly setup and tuned some of the stock ecu MAF cars ca be. for instance, i just got one in with 1100cc FIC bluemax high Z injectors installed and tuned by another local shop. they didn't remove the ballast resistor, and had the injectors scaled to 505. i was BARELY able to drive the car into my shop (slight incline). i was astonished a shop would give a car back running like that. i see examples like this all the time, so MAF cars can and do run well, if you take the time to make sure everything is ok.
E-spec
I find it...surprising... that a car that trapped 117mph in 20 degree weather was also able to trap 117 in 90 degree weather with no other changes. That is a MASSIVE difference in air density.
Anyway, as I have said about a million times before, if you need it, the SD patch is a life saver. It will change a car that is nothing but trouble on the MAF to a car that drives better then stock. BUT... there are still issues with it. These issues are MUCH less annoying then the constant stalling and surging you get on the MAF when the car truly needs the SD patch though.
If your car runs smooth on the MAF though, I wouldn't convert over unless you are at the point where sucking in the honeycomb becomes a concern.
I find it...surprising... that a car that trapped 117mph in 20 degree weather was also able to trap 117 in 90 degree weather with no other changes. That is a MASSIVE difference in air density.
Anyway, as I have said about a million times before, if you need it, the SD patch is a life saver. It will change a car that is nothing but trouble on the MAF to a car that drives better then stock. BUT... there are still issues with it. These issues are MUCH less annoying then the constant stalling and surging you get on the MAF when the car truly needs the SD patch though.
If your car runs smooth on the MAF though, I wouldn't convert over unless you are at the point where sucking in the honeycomb becomes a concern.