tommorrow ill try to get it up


correct. pte1200s.. what sucks is that i was waiting for ID to send 2k's back and was cutting it to close to the shootout then they showed up on my doorstep the 2nd day i was in ohio.

wasnt trying to push the car hard, just wanted to be competitive in the ESA class and was anxious to get the car done in time and get a feel for it at a local track.

i shouldve just left the stock turbo on for the shootout..

 

Forgot to add- car also has a buschur double pumper to feed the 1200s.

 

What turbo were you running? Nevermind I used my reading skills and found the answer lol

 

Let's stay on topic. Don't worry about which shop/tuner, etc. This is going to be good info for the community so let's keep it on topic.

Peter wanted me to post this on here. Here is the Knock Sum versus Knock Voltage. You can see that there is zero counts of knock when the voltage spikes up to 4 volts.



When tuning with E85 I use MBT. This is why I keep the knock settings stock, even on built motors. If it's knocking on E85, then there is noise there that needs to be diagnosed. Hard to do when the knock sensor is altered. Good thing knock voltage was recorded on his log. Unfortunately it was too late.

If it knocks randomly on some pulls, but not others then it's probably phantom knock. If it consistantly knocks in the same spot then it's real.

When playing with big numbers, or any tune for that matter, it's best to tune on a very flat road and try to recreate each WOT log the same as the one before. Eg. Start the pull at 3500 on each pull. I like to cruise at 3750 rpm and then decel then to 3250 rpm. Bring it up to 3500 and then WOT. This way it's consistent. After the pull, cruise until you find a spot to make a U-Turn and go back to the same exact spot you started your original pull. That way you can tune on the same road in the same direction and the engine can cool down. After the tune do a pull in both directions. If you don't have any good flat roads then do it on a dyno.

I like Peter's attitude about getting back into it for next Spring! GL man!!!

 

PureDrive, Can you explain the correlation of Knock sum to Knock voltage? And I thought you should never see knock on E85 because its so knock resistant and if you did things are very bad

 

That's correct! If you are seeing knock on E85 it is very bad because it is so knock resistant, not knock proof. Remember E85 is knock resistant because of the great cooling effect it has.

Knock sum on stock settings would register with this knock voltage. However, when tuning you need to look at the knock voltage for spikes. There are some very good threads on this on this forum.

 

627whp std on a dynojet on Tom's car was over 90% IDC on his stock block and pte 1200cc. When running injectors that hard they can easily go static and cyl #1 is always the cyl to go leaner by nature then the rest and it can go lean enough to cause that kind of damage.

That timing doesn't look that bad to cause that kind of failure. i can show you a timing map that has 22* @ 6500RPM & 28* @ 7000RPM and no issues happened to the engine after tons of abuse. You can get away with a hell of a lot on e85 with no failure like that. The car had a 35R~ size turbo. The knock filter was left stock, but when i shaved off 10* timing the car trapped more MPH then it ever did before.

I think cyl #1 went dangerously lean enough to interrupt the combustion and caused a nasty lean misfire resulting in severe detonation.

Pure drive: I've owned a built evo engine since 2007-2008. I remember the first time i tried to tune it and did not know how to change knock filters at the time. Just idling / reving the car up on Kelford 272 cams it knocked 10-20 counts. As soon as you got into boost it false knocked the entire spool up because of the aggressive ramp rate of the Kelford cams. no tuning was able to cure it.

I still remember it clear to this day. Some cars if you keep the sensor absolutely 100% stock you jeopardize the driveability of the car and it will never be a consistent car ever without slight adjustments.

Typically mid/upper doesn't need touched normally, if it does i recommend the customer a new knock sensor, because as the sensors get older they tend to not be as consistent.

Its always best to not adjust them as much as possible though.

 

Also i don't think the car would register Knock on the sensor just from the lean AFR as crazy as that sounds. E85 can be very weird stuff. When my hobb switch was going out in my car it went 15 AFR or so a bunch of times and no knock volt spike and no knocksum and the filter was stock mid and high where the car was being ran. The car just sounded fast but lost 400whp. it was the worst feeling in the world.

What sucks about E85 is, it wont let you know you're doing something wrong sometimes until its to late.

I am almost certain a lean misfire caused this failure, which is responsible for most E85 failures that exist.

Mine went lean enough 15-20 pulls to i guess kill the wristpin because that is the only thing that failed, when disassembling the engine everything looked extremely good. Its the only fuel ill ever run in my evo, but it does allow for catastrophic failures to occur with no sign of why when lean misfires happen. I am almost one year without a car due to that.

There are really old threads on here from guys running timing similar to the map i posted, and the tuner just keeps adding timing waiting for the knock sensor to pick up knock. sometimes e85 never knocks. just because it doesn't show knock, doesn't mean the tunes safe!

By default one should set the filters as minimal as possible though i agree with that 100%.

 

Image removed.

Please don't post competitor tunes.

 

The map I posted is not a vendor on this forum.

 

Former sponsor, but still a business.

Thanks.

 

could be a cam position failure the only time i had seen a headgasket like this the exhaust cam position sensor was the culprit.

 

e85 can be a tricky beast. As stated above, the knock sensor won't always be a good indicator of being past MBT.

I've now smoked 2 engines exactly like this. One on my EVO9 and one on my 1g DSM.

Both times the logs never showed anything unusual -> A/F, Timing, and knock were all within what I would call 'normal' for how the car ran day in and day out! and yet both times, once it pushed the tiniest bit of coolant it went into a spiraling self-destruct mode that torched both block and head.

two things I now pay extra attention to on my e85 cars:
1.) If my dash light knock indicator comes on, I immediately let off
2.) Absolutely do NOT let the engine continue running after a failure as I believe that the ignited air/fuel mixture rushing through the initial blown head gasket acts exactly like a blow torch and makes the damage worse.

In both of my failures, I drove the car to the next exit (pits for the DSM) on 3 cylinders. I attribute the extreme torched affect to running the car after the initial blown head gasket damage.

John-

 

The term for this damage is "preignition" which is different than"knock". Knock is when the spark plug ignites the mixture and it explodes in an uncontrolled fashion. That is bad because it creates high cylinder pressures. Usually this doesn't happen with e85. What does happen with E85 when it is lean is that the mixture ignites on its own during the compression stroke. You now have 2 opposite forces pushing against each other. The other cylinder is pushing the crank forward and the preignition is trying to turn the motor backwards. This is very bad and will destroy everything in short order. This is why I run E85 super fat. It is impossible to foul plugs with E85 and it will help prevent preignition.

 

I concurr, ill run my car fat all day long. 11.0 ish afr all day long at wot. Ill sacrifice a few ponies to keep my motor happy. Havent lost a motor yet and have been running e85 since 2008.