GEMS ECU and Ralliart
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GEMS ECU and Ralliart
As you may or may not know I went to Ralliart Dudley for my 18k service on my E6 GSR last weekend, while I was there I asked about the cost of installing a GEMS ECU, I was quoted £1900, keep in mind that you can get them directly from GEMS for £800, I kinda thought that this was a bit over the tops, has anyone else got any quotes for a GEMS, I know a few others were looking at getting one fitted.
Ta
Ryan
Ta
Ryan
Is the GEMS ECU customizable? Apexi has a Power FC which replaces the stock ECU and allows you to alter the fuel, timing, and boost settings. I think it costs in the neighborhood of $1300 + shipping fees.
I personally feel that a customizable ECU is the way to go. Every car has different characteristics ( I've never seen two cars with the same settings perform exactly the same ) so using an ECU with the set parameters doesn't seem as effective. You do have to make sure you have an expert to tune the vehicle properly because you can do worse if you don't know what you're doing.
Mark
I personally feel that a customizable ECU is the way to go. Every car has different characteristics ( I've never seen two cars with the same settings perform exactly the same ) so using an ECU with the set parameters doesn't seem as effective. You do have to make sure you have an expert to tune the vehicle properly because you can do worse if you don't know what you're doing.
Mark
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Funnily enough, the one thing that keeps cropping up about Ralliart uk is the price issue... dunno why their quote is so high compared to the parts price, maybe they're looking at mapping it for you too? (labour costs are downright expensive these days 
)
I agree with KK, if you change the ECU, get a fully mappable one (I beleive the Gems is, isn't it?). When I get round to "stage 1" tuning my 6 (zorst and filter) I was looking at putting a Link or Motec in at the same time, partly to get her running the new breathing properly (ie take advantage of the new setup), and partly because I know as soon as I mod one bit, I'm gonna want to do all the rest too so I may as well get bits that'll still be useful at higher levels of tune
Give me a year or so, and I'll probably be running 450bhp because I couldn't resist adding bits (intercooler, turbo, balanced cams+crank)...
Derek
)I agree with KK, if you change the ECU, get a fully mappable one (I beleive the Gems is, isn't it?). When I get round to "stage 1" tuning my 6 (zorst and filter) I was looking at putting a Link or Motec in at the same time, partly to get her running the new breathing properly (ie take advantage of the new setup), and partly because I know as soon as I mod one bit, I'm gonna want to do all the rest too so I may as well get bits that'll still be useful at higher levels of tune
Give me a year or so, and I'll probably be running 450bhp because I couldn't resist adding bits (intercooler, turbo, balanced cams+crank)...
Derek
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KK,
Yes the GEMS is fully remappable, and what's more you get the software to do it yourself (If your ***** are big enough)
Check out http://www.gems.co.uk you can download the demo software there and see how good it is
I think its the cost of the expert that I don't really like but I'm not brave enough to do it myself, there are a few guys on the MLR though that have done so.
Numpty,
Tell me about it, the price was including labour, fitting, mapping RR and track tuning, actually everything that you need, even so its a hell of a lot on top the basic price of a GEMS.
I've looked in detail at the GEMS, Link, PE remap and Ralliart Sports ECU, it really depends what you want to do.
GEMS - best software, built in boost controller, ALS etc
Link - Similar features but a bit cheaper, imho the software doesn't look as good. There is only 1 official reseller/tuner of the links in the UK, this put me off a little, they are also not willing to sell the ECU in a way that you can edit the map yourself (should you want to). The tuner have been doing the Link on Scoobies for some time but as far as I can tell are relatively new to the Evo Link.
PE and Ralliart - Cheaper option but don't have boost controllers so you need to buy one, do the sums I suspect that the price for the ECU + controller will come out similar to that of the GEMS. Both of these take the standard ECU and remap it, that means you can't do any tweaks yourself (although you probably won't ever want too), it does however tie you to a particular tuner should you need a remap at a later date.
Michael,
Who did you get that quote from, I'm sure that £800 I got quoted included the software not sure about the conservative map though.
Ryan
Yes the GEMS is fully remappable, and what's more you get the software to do it yourself (If your ***** are big enough)
Check out http://www.gems.co.uk you can download the demo software there and see how good it is
I think its the cost of the expert that I don't really like
but I'm not brave enough to do it myself, there are a few guys on the MLR though that have done so.Numpty,
Tell me about it, the price was including labour, fitting, mapping RR and track tuning, actually everything that you need, even so its a hell of a lot on top the basic price of a GEMS.
I've looked in detail at the GEMS, Link, PE remap and Ralliart Sports ECU, it really depends what you want to do.
GEMS - best software, built in boost controller, ALS etc
Link - Similar features but a bit cheaper, imho the software doesn't look as good. There is only 1 official reseller/tuner of the links in the UK, this put me off a little, they are also not willing to sell the ECU in a way that you can edit the map yourself (should you want to). The tuner have been doing the Link on Scoobies for some time but as far as I can tell are relatively new to the Evo Link.
PE and Ralliart - Cheaper option but don't have boost controllers so you need to buy one, do the sums I suspect that the price for the ECU + controller will come out similar to that of the GEMS. Both of these take the standard ECU and remap it, that means you can't do any tweaks yourself (although you probably won't ever want too), it does however tie you to a particular tuner should you need a remap at a later date.
Michael,
Who did you get that quote from, I'm sure that £800 I got quoted included the software not sure about the conservative map though.
Ryan
Last edited by dedeffa; Nov 16, 2001 at 06:40 AM.
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Michael
I know that Gems offer a plug and play ECU for the EVO.
The problem of the standard map will be that it is mapped for the 32mm restrictor in the turbo inlet (Group N). What do you reckon?
Mike
PS: Does your mail in the office work again. Sent some infos about Motec
I know that Gems offer a plug and play ECU for the EVO.
The problem of the standard map will be that it is mapped for the 32mm restrictor in the turbo inlet (Group N). What do you reckon?
Mike
PS: Does your mail in the office work again. Sent some infos about Motec
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Avoid Motec for a road car - no knock control and no idle speed control, which means it will be difficult driving in traffic (will idle at 700 when cold and 1200 when hot!)
There is another advantage to GEMS/Motec over standard and that is the ability to have higher boost in the midrange. One of the problems with the standard car is that the turbo chokes the car, and running much above 1.6 bar is pointless at high revs. Standard/PE ECU and boost controller limits you to this. However, running a GEMS or Motec you can map 2 bar or more in the midrange, and drop it back at higher revs. This is how Grp A cars get such high torque figures (and also the RS450).
Problem is: the strain that torque puts on the engine, you really need uprated internals - and if you get that, you may as well get a better turbo - which means you can go back to normal boost mapping and the PE ECU comes back into favour!
ALS is another issue, although this IS possible with the standard ECU (PE have almost got that working...)
Having said all that, I am considering a Motec, only because of the data logging
There is another advantage to GEMS/Motec over standard and that is the ability to have higher boost in the midrange. One of the problems with the standard car is that the turbo chokes the car, and running much above 1.6 bar is pointless at high revs. Standard/PE ECU and boost controller limits you to this. However, running a GEMS or Motec you can map 2 bar or more in the midrange, and drop it back at higher revs. This is how Grp A cars get such high torque figures (and also the RS450).
Problem is: the strain that torque puts on the engine, you really need uprated internals - and if you get that, you may as well get a better turbo - which means you can go back to normal boost mapping and the PE ECU comes back into favour!
ALS is another issue, although this IS possible with the standard ECU (PE have almost got that working...)
Having said all that, I am considering a Motec, only because of the data logging
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Tony
there two ways to control the idling, either switch off cylinders (as done in Rally cars) or contact Prospeed as they developped an idle stepper motor which is controlled by the Motec ECU.
You're right about the strain on the internals and driving gear. Have taken that into consideration.
Dave has given me some fair quotes (price and power) so this is still on top of my list. But as it's winter here enough time to evaluate all the options.
BTW the guy responsible for the front splitter is difficult to reach. Tried it several times without success. I'll try it again next week. As my back is still bad I'll have a complete body scan tomorrow! Bit scared to be honest
Cheers
Mike
there two ways to control the idling, either switch off cylinders (as done in Rally cars) or contact Prospeed as they developped an idle stepper motor which is controlled by the Motec ECU.
You're right about the strain on the internals and driving gear. Have taken that into consideration.
Dave has given me some fair quotes (price and power) so this is still on top of my list. But as it's winter here enough time to evaluate all the options.
BTW the guy responsible for the front splitter is difficult to reach. Tried it several times without success. I'll try it again next week. As my back is still bad I'll have a complete body scan tomorrow! Bit scared to be honest
Cheers
Mike
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Scoobymike, when I spoke to them they said they can take different car and engine specs into consideration with the conservative map, and notably also for a road car.
Hopefully your scan doesn't show anything too bad...
Hopefully your scan doesn't show anything too bad...
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Hi Michael
this sounds very interesting. If they can already deliver a conservative map for an unrestricted road car for a decent price I might be interested. What do you reckon. I know two guys who are top Motec mappers. Would they be able to finetune also the GEMS map? As the GEMS hardware is much cheaper than the Motec this would give some more opportunities.
It's a real pain with my back. Don't have the results yet. Till I've got them I don't spend anymore money on the car. You never know!
But I'm in good mood and looking forward to meeting you next year at the Ring for some good fun (and nice ECUs
)
Cheers
Mike
PS: What's the price for such a GEMS with such a map? I think it's plug and play, isn't it? It also can use the standard MAF sensor so in my case no fiddling around with new sensors!
this sounds very interesting. If they can already deliver a conservative map for an unrestricted road car for a decent price I might be interested. What do you reckon. I know two guys who are top Motec mappers. Would they be able to finetune also the GEMS map? As the GEMS hardware is much cheaper than the Motec this would give some more opportunities.
It's a real pain with my back. Don't have the results yet. Till I've got them I don't spend anymore money on the car. You never know!
But I'm in good mood and looking forward to meeting you next year at the Ring for some good fun (and nice ECUs
)Cheers
Mike
PS: What's the price for such a GEMS with such a map? I think it's plug and play, isn't it? It also can use the standard MAF sensor so in my case no fiddling around with new sensors!
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The quote I got was 1100 pounds, but it could be that it's cheaper if you buy from the UK as people quote 800 pounds. Or maybe it's 300 pounds for the map?? That's a little on the expensive side...
Mike, I'm quite sure a Motec tuner will be able to use the GEMS cause I think the inputs should be quite similar. At least Prospeed didn't seem to have a lot of problems...
Yep, looking forward to meeting you too. Spoke to Gerrit yesterday and he said he might help me a little with the Ring, which would be nice. All we need is Claudius and Maxi to come up, Andre and Gerrit to scare us and a few others and it should be a lot of fun. I'll go and see Claudius and Maxi in Feb the way it looks at the moment.
Mike, I'm quite sure a Motec tuner will be able to use the GEMS cause I think the inputs should be quite similar. At least Prospeed didn't seem to have a lot of problems...
Yep, looking forward to meeting you too. Spoke to Gerrit yesterday and he said he might help me a little with the Ring, which would be nice. All we need is Claudius and Maxi to come up, Andre and Gerrit to scare us and a few others and it should be a lot of fun. I'll go and see Claudius and Maxi in Feb the way it looks at the moment.
hmmm, maybe it depends on the vehicle. The Power FC units we get in the US actually replace the stock ECU. Here's an explanation from a company that imports the units:
"One of the most user friendly and sophisticated systems in the world. Replaces your ECU completely (plug in) and can control virtually all ECU functions via hand held controller. It allows control of the following functions:
idle point (warm and cold)
Fuel maps
ignition timing maps
rev limiter
VTEC (Hondas only)
boost control (with optional module)
injector size calibration (for larger injectors)
and many other features
Also, with controller, you can monitor all your vehicle sensors in real time in either numerical (1,2,4 or 8 at a time) or in graph form."
The units should be plug and play, but I don't think they are piggy back as they have their own maps for each setting vs. altering the stock ECU maps.
Here's a great article on the Power FC:
http://www.autospeed.com.au/A_0301/P_1/article.html
Mark
"One of the most user friendly and sophisticated systems in the world. Replaces your ECU completely (plug in) and can control virtually all ECU functions via hand held controller. It allows control of the following functions:
idle point (warm and cold)
Fuel maps
ignition timing maps
rev limiter
VTEC (Hondas only)
boost control (with optional module)
injector size calibration (for larger injectors)
and many other features
Also, with controller, you can monitor all your vehicle sensors in real time in either numerical (1,2,4 or 8 at a time) or in graph form."
The units should be plug and play, but I don't think they are piggy back as they have their own maps for each setting vs. altering the stock ECU maps.
Here's a great article on the Power FC:
http://www.autospeed.com.au/A_0301/P_1/article.html
Mark
Do you guys have any links with info on the GEMS ECU?