Lime Rock Track report
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Originally posted by donkeymaster
I have never seen a faster make of car on the track that I have not passed at least one of.
I have never seen a faster make of car on the track that I have not passed at least one of.
Originally posted by donkeymaster
I have, likewise, been passed by "slower" cars.
I have, likewise, been passed by "slower" cars.
Originally posted by donkeymaster
I suspect that what was really keeping you from going faster was your driving skill, Claudius, but who knows.
I suspect that what was really keeping you from going faster was your driving skill, Claudius, but who knows.
Originally posted by donkeymaster
You guys need to get a grip. An M3 with worked suspension handles fantastically well, and in its stock configuration was named best handling car at any price by some US magazine.
You guys need to get a grip. An M3 with worked suspension handles fantastically well, and in its stock configuration was named best handling car at any price by some US magazine.
Originally posted by donkeymaster
It is widely known as a very satisfying car to drive fast.
It is widely known as a very satisfying car to drive fast.
Originally posted by donkeymaster
Does it still kick ***? Yes.
Does it still kick ***? Yes.
Originally posted by donkeymaster
I'd trailer the kart to the track and turn lap times that would positively SHAME your evo, Claudius, no matter what you've done to it.
I'd trailer the kart to the track and turn lap times that would positively SHAME your evo, Claudius, no matter what you've done to it.
Anyway, you got the idea, a beemer wont be good enough to compete. Bye.
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Joined: Sep 2001
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Originally posted by Claudius
Erm... I havent, actually
Erm... I havent, actually
As you say, you dont know. So dont start attacking people on here, it normally gets you warned.
Whatever. What kind of a comparison is that, a race kart against a car??
Anyway, you got the idea, a beemer wont be good enough to compete. Bye.
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Originally posted by donkeymaster
-Never- passed by someone whose car wasn't quite as fast as yours, but who just outdrove you?
-Never- passed by someone whose car wasn't quite as fast as yours, but who just outdrove you?
Originally posted by donkeymaster
It's a personal attack to suggest a moderator might have a few things to learn about driving?
It's a personal attack to suggest a moderator might have a few things to learn about driving?
Originally posted by donkeymaster
If you're so fast you find that insulting, then, again, you probably shouldn't be whittling away at the keyboard. That's talent you're wasting!
If you're so fast you find that insulting, then, again, you probably shouldn't be whittling away at the keyboard. That's talent you're wasting!
Originally posted by donkeymaster
If you really want to be quick, there are WAY faster options than your Evo. End of story.
If you really want to be quick, there are WAY faster options than your Evo. End of story.
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Joined: Mar 2003
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Hi guys...
Page 1 write up...
good stuff to read mate. Quality.
M3 driver, the old M3 despite its old and badly compromised suspension can be made to 'handle' nicely.. but the design always limits the roadholding... I am always disappointed when the Bavarians trot out the same poor design year after year.
The BMW Corp. will never change whilst there are mis-guided people clapping them on the back about 'handling' and ignoring roadholding...
Still, they target their potential buyers very accurately... you have to admire that.
M3 man get your hands on a car with proper suspension and you will be at first lost... it won't feel 'right'... it gives lots of real info without all the compromises that BMW put in the picture... but with a little bit of time you will see the BMW for what it is...
Page 1 write up...
good stuff to read mate. Quality.M3 driver, the old M3 despite its old and badly compromised suspension can be made to 'handle' nicely.. but the design always limits the roadholding... I am always disappointed when the Bavarians trot out the same poor design year after year.
The BMW Corp. will never change whilst there are mis-guided people clapping them on the back about 'handling' and ignoring roadholding...
Still, they target their potential buyers very accurately... you have to admire that.
M3 man get your hands on a car with proper suspension and you will be at first lost... it won't feel 'right'... it gives lots of real info without all the compromises that BMW put in the picture... but with a little bit of time you will see the BMW for what it is...
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From: Between the Blue and the Sand
This is an Evo site. Does anyone realistically expect we would jump on your (as viewed from an Evo owners eyes), " I bought a used M3 cause I'm impatient, and now need to rationalize my purchase" bandwagon? You are mistaken if that is the case. And if you believe you got such the better deal overall on your M3, why are you even on this board right now?
Sure some of us will like BMW's, and some will like Honda's or other makes...but you will be hard pressed to find any one make or brand or model of automobile, other than the Evo, that will get you widespread approval in here.
So please take your, "mine is better" attitude to a board that will entertain your point of view...or put it away and be an upstanding member here.
SC~
Sure some of us will like BMW's, and some will like Honda's or other makes...but you will be hard pressed to find any one make or brand or model of automobile, other than the Evo, that will get you widespread approval in here.
So please take your, "mine is better" attitude to a board that will entertain your point of view...or put it away and be an upstanding member here.
SC~
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Haha. I don't care about widespread approval of my car, though if I did, I definitely made the right decision.
Nor do I have a 'mine is better' attitude. I have a 'mine is nice, too' attitude, which I'm surprised anyone thinks is a very controversial statement. The reason I'm here is quite simply that I'm interested to see how the evo 8 works out in the US. Maybe I'll get one later if it sounds like something I want. If it makes you happy to bag on my car to justify your own purchase and the trade offs you made, I don't think you should be surprised if I step up to defend it.
RE the better deal angle, I was just pointing out the error in the suggestions by Claudius that BMWs are so overpriced, and that the Evo is the fastest thing you can get for $32k. There are a lot of ways to spend money. Evo is definitely a great compromise street/track car, but you will do better if you can buy two different single purpose vehicles.
Mycroft, I'm curious, why do you think the Evo has an incredibly advanced suspension design? It's Macpherson struts in the front, and a multilink rear, just like an M3. The suspension on both Evo and M3 could arguably be improved with double wishbones in the front. I have seen video of a car like mine with dot r tires and springs/dampers/antiroll upgrades lift both inside wheels on a turn. That is road holding limited purely by physics and the center of gravity of the car -- unless the evo has a lower center of gravity, the M3 would be faster around that corner.
The real error at BMW is not their suspension design, but their progression of making the M cars ever more luxurious and less sporty. Admittedly, each generation has always been faster, but power doesn't really make up for the added mass that comes with the luxury. Unless that changes, this will definitely be the last model of M3 I own.
Also, I see that Claudius is saying something different than I'd thought. He's a real fast street racer, who is under the impression that it's a wild assumption to think he might need to learn something if he wants to be faster. So, I can certainly believe that not too many people are crazy enough to push it harder on the street. I think that kind of driving is kind of lame, but I do recognize it's something the Evo is probably uniquely suited to. I'm sorry if you feel it's a put down to suggest that you might want to reconsider your statement of being the perfect driving machine who has nothing to learn to go faster. I doubt there are many professional race drivers who would say they have nothing to learn. Probably close to zero who are very successful -- the rest just whine about how their car isn't faster.
It's also a bit of a stretch to say I came here boasting. In the first few posts made here, I said little other than that I hoped to see an evo at the track, and that it would be fun to pass it. At the same time, I acknowledged the superior apparent performance of the Evo. Not too boastful, imo. Nothing like saying I'm the best driver I've ever met on the street or track or anything.
Nor do I have a 'mine is better' attitude. I have a 'mine is nice, too' attitude, which I'm surprised anyone thinks is a very controversial statement. The reason I'm here is quite simply that I'm interested to see how the evo 8 works out in the US. Maybe I'll get one later if it sounds like something I want. If it makes you happy to bag on my car to justify your own purchase and the trade offs you made, I don't think you should be surprised if I step up to defend it.
RE the better deal angle, I was just pointing out the error in the suggestions by Claudius that BMWs are so overpriced, and that the Evo is the fastest thing you can get for $32k. There are a lot of ways to spend money. Evo is definitely a great compromise street/track car, but you will do better if you can buy two different single purpose vehicles.
Mycroft, I'm curious, why do you think the Evo has an incredibly advanced suspension design? It's Macpherson struts in the front, and a multilink rear, just like an M3. The suspension on both Evo and M3 could arguably be improved with double wishbones in the front. I have seen video of a car like mine with dot r tires and springs/dampers/antiroll upgrades lift both inside wheels on a turn. That is road holding limited purely by physics and the center of gravity of the car -- unless the evo has a lower center of gravity, the M3 would be faster around that corner.
The real error at BMW is not their suspension design, but their progression of making the M cars ever more luxurious and less sporty. Admittedly, each generation has always been faster, but power doesn't really make up for the added mass that comes with the luxury. Unless that changes, this will definitely be the last model of M3 I own.
Also, I see that Claudius is saying something different than I'd thought. He's a real fast street racer, who is under the impression that it's a wild assumption to think he might need to learn something if he wants to be faster. So, I can certainly believe that not too many people are crazy enough to push it harder on the street. I think that kind of driving is kind of lame, but I do recognize it's something the Evo is probably uniquely suited to. I'm sorry if you feel it's a put down to suggest that you might want to reconsider your statement of being the perfect driving machine who has nothing to learn to go faster. I doubt there are many professional race drivers who would say they have nothing to learn. Probably close to zero who are very successful -- the rest just whine about how their car isn't faster.
It's also a bit of a stretch to say I came here boasting. In the first few posts made here, I said little other than that I hoped to see an evo at the track, and that it would be fun to pass it. At the same time, I acknowledged the superior apparent performance of the Evo. Not too boastful, imo. Nothing like saying I'm the best driver I've ever met on the street or track or anything.
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Originally posted by donkeymaster
RE the better deal angle, I was just pointing out the error in the suggestions by Claudius that BMWs are so overpriced, and that the Evo is the fastest thing you can get for $32k.
RE the better deal angle, I was just pointing out the error in the suggestions by Claudius that BMWs are so overpriced, and that the Evo is the fastest thing you can get for $32k.
Originally posted by donkeymaster
I have seen video of a car like mine with dot r tires and springs/dampers/antiroll upgrades lift both inside wheels on a turn. That is road holding limited purely by physics and the center of gravity of the car -- unless the evo has a lower center of gravity, the M3 would be faster around that corner.
I have seen video of a car like mine with dot r tires and springs/dampers/antiroll upgrades lift both inside wheels on a turn. That is road holding limited purely by physics and the center of gravity of the car -- unless the evo has a lower center of gravity, the M3 would be faster around that corner.
Originally posted by donkeymaster
The real error at BMW is not their suspension design, but their progression of making the M cars ever more luxurious and less sporty. Admittedly, each generation has always been faster, but power doesn't really make up for the added mass that comes with the luxury. Unless that changes, this will definitely be the last model of M3 I own.
The real error at BMW is not their suspension design, but their progression of making the M cars ever more luxurious and less sporty. Admittedly, each generation has always been faster, but power doesn't really make up for the added mass that comes with the luxury. Unless that changes, this will definitely be the last model of M3 I own.
Originally posted by donkeymaster
Also, I see that Claudius is saying something different than I'd thought. He's a real fast street racer, who is under the impression that it's a wild assumption to think he might need to learn something if he wants to be faster.
Also, I see that Claudius is saying something different than I'd thought. He's a real fast street racer, who is under the impression that it's a wild assumption to think he might need to learn something if he wants to be faster.
Originally posted by donkeymaster
I think that kind of driving is kind of lame, but I do recognize it's something the Evo is probably uniquely suited to. I'm sorry if you feel it's a put down to suggest that you might want to reconsider your statement of being the perfect driving machine who has nothing to learn to go faster.
I think that kind of driving is kind of lame, but I do recognize it's something the Evo is probably uniquely suited to. I'm sorry if you feel it's a put down to suggest that you might want to reconsider your statement of being the perfect driving machine who has nothing to learn to go faster.
Again, please stop the personal attacks.
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I have never considered the EVO to have an advanced suspension!
Compared to my own car which has the proper notional centred split wishbone type at the front and rear. So both cars are 'cheap' in my books!
The BMW has to put all its torque/power through just the rear axle.. the EVO has the saving grace of 4WD so the compromise is less stressed...
Compared to my own car which has the proper notional centred split wishbone type at the front and rear. So both cars are 'cheap' in my books!
The BMW has to put all its torque/power through just the rear axle.. the EVO has the saving grace of 4WD so the compromise is less stressed...
Thread Starter
Evolving Member
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 447
Likes: 1
Hi,
I have plenty of time in the E36 on track in stock, World Challeinge prepped, A-Modified prepped etc. A stock US Evo vs a stock E36 is no contest. The Evo kicks the beemers ***. This assumes two drivers of similar ability. The track configuration would make no difference other than the faster the track, the farther behind the BMW would be. End of story.
Cheers,
I have plenty of time in the E36 on track in stock, World Challeinge prepped, A-Modified prepped etc. A stock US Evo vs a stock E36 is no contest. The Evo kicks the beemers ***. This assumes two drivers of similar ability. The track configuration would make no difference other than the faster the track, the farther behind the BMW would be. End of story.
Cheers,
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 391
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From: Virginia
Wasn't sure whether to post in this thread or in a new one elsewhere, but it's about what wtz said about his wheels in this thread, so...
wtz, you said that with your SSR Comp wheels you had to install longer studs up front and run a 5mm spacer for caliper clearance despite 38mm offset. Well, I was looking at the specs for this wheel, and from what I can tell, they don't come in 38mm offset, the closest offsets they have are 35 & 40 (see http://www.speedstar.co.jp/collection/type_c/spec.html and/or http://www.wheelspecs.com/specs/wheelmodels/377 ). If yours actually have a 40mm offset, then it would be less of a surprise that you had problems. I assume then that the 35mm version would work fine w/o spacers...
thoughts?
JW
wtz, you said that with your SSR Comp wheels you had to install longer studs up front and run a 5mm spacer for caliper clearance despite 38mm offset. Well, I was looking at the specs for this wheel, and from what I can tell, they don't come in 38mm offset, the closest offsets they have are 35 & 40 (see http://www.speedstar.co.jp/collection/type_c/spec.html and/or http://www.wheelspecs.com/specs/wheelmodels/377 ). If yours actually have a 40mm offset, then it would be less of a surprise that you had problems. I assume then that the 35mm version would work fine w/o spacers...
thoughts?
JW
Thread Starter
Evolving Member
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 447
Likes: 1
Hi All,
For anyone who's interested there are pictures of the Evo on track at www.gallery.pdadrivingschool.com/. Click on Lime Rock Park, March 2003, Black run group.
Cheers,
For anyone who's interested there are pictures of the Evo on track at www.gallery.pdadrivingschool.com/. Click on Lime Rock Park, March 2003, Black run group.
Cheers,
Well back to the topic of this post...being a review of the EVO....I was at Putnam Park 2 weeks ago for a driver school and experienced the exact same juddering that wtz was referring too. It was on the last track session of the last day. As soon as the brakes cooled the "warping feeling" went away. Does anyone have any ideas how to avoid this from happening again? I know the brake cooling and my driving style of the track needs work, but still if other more experienced people are having the same problem something obviously need to be done...any thoughts?