Quest for 9's... Buschur Racing FTMFW!
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Joined: Aug 2005
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From: Virginia Beach, Virginia
that looks really nice, I've refused to put a cage in any of my cars thus far but I think I'm going to with the EVO and seeing it tastefully done like that really eases my mind.
thanks a ton for sharing it with us and be proud of that car, it's gorgeous!
thanks a ton for sharing it with us and be proud of that car, it's gorgeous!
That looks awesome! Dave, cant wait for my tune on the 25th! Hopefully you can pull enough power out of my car, plus get a kit for this to where I can convince myself that I need one!
Nice job guys!
Nice job guys!
Here's what you (evo8ltw)wrote that myself and anyone else in this thread had delivered to their in box (I am going to put my responses inside your response marked by **):
From EVO8LTW:
"I have to disagree with you and here's my reasoning. Back stays are generally required to have no bends for max strength and rigidity (see NASA and SCCA road race cage rules) and are kept relatively short and away from the roof."
**I think looking at anything NASA or SCCA does for a basic roll bar isn't a good example. Their rules are not nearly as strict as NHRA/IHRA's. You can put just about anything in the car, bolt in etc., and not get hassled. As a matter of fact if you take NASA TT for example there are very few/no rules for roll bars or cages in the TT classes.
From EVO8LTW:
"I have to disagree with you and here's my reasoning. Back stays are generally required to have no bends for max strength and rigidity (see NASA and SCCA road race cage rules) and are kept relatively short and away from the roof."
**I think looking at anything NASA or SCCA does for a basic roll bar isn't a good example. Their rules are not nearly as strict as NHRA/IHRA's. You can put just about anything in the car, bolt in etc., and not get hassled. As a matter of fact if you take NASA TT for example there are very few/no rules for roll bars or cages in the TT classes.
I also feel this gives much more strength to the cage. (I realize you do not agree with this but let me continue) If you look at the roll cage rule which would contain the front bar around the roof, one more door bar, two rocker bars (I forgot about those in my last post) and the two front bars this would make this roll bar then legal to 7.50's. The key to that is the two straight bars you are describing now are completely elimated and the bars then run up along the roof to the rear. I know we are discussing but there is no way you can convince me letting the back of the roof smash in is a safer/better idea than the roll bar protecting the rear too. It is required as the speeds increase.
"Longer rear support bars like these that are mounted far from the main hoop can exert huge twisting forces on the main hoop if they move in a crash (their length gives them leverage). Even worse, this particular design places those bars flush against the rear section of the roof where they are likely to take significant downward force in a hard roll over, and turn that force into a severe rearward/downward torque on the main hoop, which you want to stay put at all costs. Wouldn't it be better for the rear of the roof to just crush and have that deformation dissipate some of the rollover impact and avoid jeopardizing the support for the main hoop? No one attemps to build a halo for the back seat area. That just doesn't make sense in any car.
**I got ahead of myself in my above response. As I said, I do not agree at all, the rear should not be allowed to smash in. If that was the case the rules and requirements of the cage wouldn't change as the speeds increase. The halo in the rear of the car does make sense. One for use of the rear seat, passenger safety and more structural integrity. Not sure it it was pictured or not but this cage also has another bar in between the two rear top bars to keep them seperated in case of a roll over.
**I got ahead of myself in my above response. As I said, I do not agree at all, the rear should not be allowed to smash in. If that was the case the rules and requirements of the cage wouldn't change as the speeds increase. The halo in the rear of the car does make sense. One for use of the rear seat, passenger safety and more structural integrity. Not sure it it was pictured or not but this cage also has another bar in between the two rear top bars to keep them seperated in case of a roll over.
15.6.11 Rear Braces
The main hoop must have two (2) braces extending to the rear. The braces shall be attached as near as possible to the top of the main hoop, and no more than six (6) inches below the top. The braces must not contain any bends. There must be at least 30 degrees between the plane of the main hoop and the plane of the rear braces. The main hoop rear braces shall be installed to form no more than a one hundred five (105) degree angle or no less than a seventy-five (75) degree angle with the main hoop when viewed from the top. The main hoop braces may be mounted at the rear shock mounts or suspension pickup points (providing that the braces remain in compliance with all other sections of the CCR). They may go through any rear bulkhead(s) provided the bulkhead(s) is sealed around the cage braces.
Also, FWIW, I saw a reference on web page, supposedly from an NHRA tech, that the permitted bends in the rear tubes under NHRA rules are not supposed to be more than 30 degrees. Not sure if you've heard that same thing, but I'm not sure if your design complies with that. It looks like it might be close at the roof.
"While those rear bars do bend downward to the trunk floor and are sitting on big foot plates, without support from other bars, or even each other, I just can't see them holding rock solid. They don't have the same sort of vertical rigidity as, say, the front bars on a full cage that work in concert with the main hoop and the rear backstays (which usually provide some upward support to the top of the main hoop) to hold up a halo bar. The front supports could counteract those forces from the rear bars somewhat, but probably not sufficiently since they are so much shorter (and therefore have less leverage on the main hoop).
**Ah ha! I bet the full picture of the rear bars isn't posted after reading this. I don't think you realize that the rear is designed with a "halo" bar in it on the roof. Also consider that if the rear bars were the shorter design that is typically used, when they are tied into the floor they just go on a single layer of sheetmetal with a 6"x6" pad under them. In the case of this design where they tie into the trunk they are on top of the "frame" rails in the rear, a TON stronger than just putting them on the floor of the car.
"Anyhow, I just can't see any advantage to that rear bar design, but I do see a clear structural disadvantage, plus it adds weight."
**Maybe after you read my opinion and consider the NHRA/IHRA rules you will change you mind. Also consider NASA and SCCA are poor examples of what is required at the entry level of racing. I do agree it added some weight, not more than 15 pounds. You also need to keep in mind that as I pointed out this design adds a huge advantage for a car such as this. This car is going to go faster than 10.00, making a standard 5 point illegal. When that time comes this will be easily upgraded to a cage that is legal with just the addition of a few more bars.
**Ah ha! I bet the full picture of the rear bars isn't posted after reading this. I don't think you realize that the rear is designed with a "halo" bar in it on the roof. Also consider that if the rear bars were the shorter design that is typically used, when they are tied into the floor they just go on a single layer of sheetmetal with a 6"x6" pad under them. In the case of this design where they tie into the trunk they are on top of the "frame" rails in the rear, a TON stronger than just putting them on the floor of the car.
"Anyhow, I just can't see any advantage to that rear bar design, but I do see a clear structural disadvantage, plus it adds weight."
**Maybe after you read my opinion and consider the NHRA/IHRA rules you will change you mind. Also consider NASA and SCCA are poor examples of what is required at the entry level of racing. I do agree it added some weight, not more than 15 pounds. You also need to keep in mind that as I pointed out this design adds a huge advantage for a car such as this. This car is going to go faster than 10.00, making a standard 5 point illegal. When that time comes this will be easily upgraded to a cage that is legal with just the addition of a few more bars.
I gave this late reply because it really bothers me to see people praising this design and expressing interest in it for their own cars. I honestly don't think it's a sound design from a safety standpoint. I'm not trying to make trouble. I just don't want to see people go down the wrong road on something this important.
Whatever the truth may be I would like for some cage builder to chime in here to put this to bed. I have no doubt or worry in this particular cage builders design and know how... I wouldn't of had it done otherwise. However, saftey is nothing I would ever want to skimp on. It's important to have multiple people look at a design to be sure it's going to work in case of a accident. So good or bad feedback on here is appreciated. 
Truthfully, I don't care how it looks... to me it looks awesome and I am very happy. Buschur Racing has never let me down and I have the utmost respect for their opinion and choices, period! I'm not out to make this car pretty, I'm out to run consistent 9's and being a little safer than I was last year... which was with nothing. I'm not sure if this is a circumstance of, "there is more than one way to skin a cat", but I would like to know. Thanks for the +/- feedback.
To the guy who thinks this cage is wack... You comments are wack as well as your waste of my time. Cheers!
Truthfully, I don't care how it looks... to me it looks awesome and I am very happy. Buschur Racing has never let me down and I have the utmost respect for their opinion and choices, period! I'm not out to make this car pretty, I'm out to run consistent 9's and being a little safer than I was last year... which was with nothing. I'm not sure if this is a circumstance of, "there is more than one way to skin a cat", but I would like to know. Thanks for the +/- feedback.
To the guy who thinks this cage is wack... You comments are wack as well as your waste of my time. Cheers!
