DSM 4G63 vs. Evo 4G63
 

My question is what are the major differences if there are any between the engines, Any specs that have been increased or decreased from the dsm to the evo. TIA

higher compression pistons
addition of crank angle sensor
7 bolt crank
hollow cam shafts

so if thats the case they are actually both capable of the same power with the same mods, i mean if you basically built he motor and increase with the same turbo on both they would be pretty identical power outputs, am i correct in assuming this?

Yep,they'r both 4g63's,same potential :mitsu:

The older 4g63 "DSM" (Diamond Star Motors is a Chrysler affiliation FYI, the Evo does not suffer from this handicap) I believe the DSM 4g63 use cast pistons and rods and the 2nd gen use 7 bolt forged cranks. The 1g DSM's use forged rods, cast pistons and the generally regarded "much stronger" 6 bolt crank.

The Evo's 7 bolt crank is a world different from both.

I have several friends with DSM's, basically everyone we've pushed past 380 whp has given up the ghost. Now, thats not STONE and my facts need work, but NO, they are not capable of the same power or durability.

Sorry but thats not true...

There are plenty of people running very powerful cars on stock DSM motors. Shane from Elite motorsports was using a 7-bolt DSM crank (Yes the worse version) and made over 700 and the motor didnt go.

There are also a handful of DSMers making over 600 on the stock block. Remember these motors are not brand new and many of them have over 100k on them.

And I have had plenty of DSMs and have a few friends that have them. They will easily take over 400 if treated properly. When they get built they can take over a thousand (Just like ours).

Exactly what TrinaBabe said. DSM's are 7-17 years old. Most of the motors are tired compared to the Evo's. The Evo head flows more than the DSM head and also has some small changes. One that wasn't mentioned yet is the Evo has ligheter rocker arms than DSM rockers.

these are all very good points, how about with the mivec head? is it safe to say that its a slightley different motor now or will people just argue that its just the head.

Second gen dsms have seven bolt cranks.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

I believe it's just the hydraulic cam gear on the intake side.

Coming from a modded 2G DSM to my Evo, I'd like to add something.
On my DSM, (GST btw=FWD) I had mods that pretty much equaled what an EVO comes with stock:
EVOIII 16g (boost at 21psi), 550 cc injectors, FMIC, walbro 190lph fuel pump and some other misc stuff. The only major difference really would be the addition of a 3" catback.
Now, from a roll, my GST felt WAY faster. From a stop is another story because the GST severly lacked traction.
I don't know if the GST was just tuned better or what. I know that Evo's come stock running pig rich so that might be why.
I never dyno'd the eclipse so I don't have any numbers to back up my claims but seat of the pants, I think my eclipse was faster from a roll...
I guess I'll just have to get an exhaust on the Evo and see how much difference that makes. I'm assuming it's going to be significant because it was on my other car.

Exactly, but damn what's that guy's secret? I was going to say 400whp on the stock bottom ends were common for both and that a few people have pushed 500whp on each, though the consensus is that the older 6-bolt is stronger, particularly the rods and the lack of CW. But you are saying this guy did 700whp on a stock 7-bolt bottom?

I will agree that the Evo 7-bolt is different, but if people figure out how to properly build 2G 7-bolts without CW that it may be a moot point.

internet made crankwalk such a big deal. Out of the many dsm friends i know, just one had signs of CW. Most dsm motor go because of spinning rod bearings. DSMs break because they have weaker/older drivetrain parts than the evo. That's the only difference i see.

Well considering your 2 cars had the same mods, but the EVO is heavier by 500+ lbs, what do you expect to be faster :lol:

If they were talking about Shane from Elite in MN it wasn't a stock bottom end. It was a 2.4 4G64 block with forged internals but an OEM 7 bolt crank. Still awsome though!

A built DSM 4G63 has all the power potential of an Evo 4G63. But Evo's are better from the factory (numerous lighter and stronger parts).

its not the 7bolt crank thats weak, its the 2nd gen rods that are much thinner than the older 6bolt ones.

1st Gen 6 bolt (90-92): used 360 degree thrust bearing (hence no crankwalk) 7.8:1 compression and had stronger rods (I believe there just cast iron, I don't think anything in the DSM blocks are forged)

7 bolt (93-99): 180 degree thrust bearing (hence the crankwalk, although its not proven this is the reason for crankwalk, just a theory) 8.5:1 compression. This version had weaker connecting rods (compared to the 6 bolt) but had stronger pistons.

7 bolt EVO (2003-2006+): 360 degree thrust bearing (hence the low occurence of crankwalk, again just a popular theory). Compression is raised to an astounding 8.8:1 (pretty high for a turbo car if you ask me) and EVERYTHING IS BACKWARDS. Timing belt is now on the left side of the engine, transmission+flywheel is on the rightside (facing the front of the car looking into the engine bay) however the exaust is still in the front and the intake is in the rear (near the firewall). Camshafts are now hollow to cut down on rotational mass, but this not really apart of the block. The crank is forged, however I believe the rods and pistons are still cast iron.

I really wish I could mount a 6 bolt engine into an EVO, I can get 6 bolt blocks from my junkyard for $100.00 a piece (I have rebuilt many). Instead I have to use these overpriced and hard to find backwards EVO blocks. ARGH! {thumbdwn}

AWD... Going to lose more power than you would with a FWD car. dont forget that. and i remember my neon was a Fing rocket on the highway and it was putting out way more than car could handle. Breaking loose @ 70 does things to you :helpme: it was like sex
But the EVO is the love of my life. I cant wait till all the parts are in :mitsu:


What does the EVO make for Compression anyways?
I always though that it was 8:1

my 90gsx felt bulletproof even though it was stock, but it took 240k miles before the tranny died on a 2-3shift. even then i was driving with only 1,2,5,and R. motor still pulled hard after that may miles and i could still see triple digits with 3 gears (although it would take quite a while)

I believe this should be brought back from the dead for more discussion. How come all the DSM guys say their car is never running or always breaking where as the evo's you don't hear that so much? I have an evo 8 that has been running 400hp since 06 and still running without any failure.

arent the head ports different then each other?

98% of DSM'ers are young and cheep.

98& of evo owners are a bit older and have jobs.

Can't say that these days. The recession has made the used car market a treasure trove for people looking to get into a Evo cheap. There are alot of people who can't afford to fix it or do mods "right" the first time and end applying (and I hate this term) Honda hatchet jobs to it.

The Chrysler Mitsubishi nuptials did not result in a marriage made in heaven. This discussion concerns the first generation AWD turbo DSMs assembled in Normal, Illinois.

The first problem with the car was the transmission. The transmissions were made in Japan (as well as most of the other parts) and I was told they used a paper coating on the transmission synchronizers. This worked well in Japan but when the transmissions were shipped dry to Illinois, the paper dried out, resulting in transmissions that would grind into most gears. This was a universal problem. All sorts of transmission cocktails were devised in a search of a cure.

The brakes were too small. What I mean by too small is that the driver could not lock the brakes in a panic stop. This was on not very sticky 55 series 16 inch tires of the time, not the amazing OEM tires that came on the Evo. This was corrected on later cars but I am not sure when.

The battery was placed in a hot location under the hood and the battery cooked. Battery life was 1 year. The red top batteries were very popular with DSM owners.

The rear axles on 90 -92 cars were too small and would twist off. This was corrected in mid year 1992.

The engineers designed motor mounts that were too soft and the motor moved a lot when torgue was put down. This allowed the transfer case output shaft to ram into the driveshaft front universal joint, forcing oil through the pressed in cup (like a freeze plug) until eventually the transfer case ran dry and locked. There was a nationwide recall for this problem.

Whatever the brake rotors were made of they really liked to rust. Once they rusted they were difficult or impossible to remove. The way some people resorted to removing the rotors was to go at them with a hammer and chisel, cutting them into pie shaped pieces. As you might imagine, this could be a huge job.

After the appearance of the seven bolt engines in the middle of 1992 crank walk reared it ugly head. People would say, “My clutch pedal feels funny when I turn left.” - Crank walk.

Owners still have problems with Evo lifters but it was worse back then. You needed a new set at about 65K. The knock sensor on these early cars heard everything and would pull all the timing to the point where the car could barely move.

The front seat belts, even though you heard a click when the belt was inserted into the latch, couldn't be trusted. More often than not, if you gave the seat belt a yank, it would come out after being fastened. When you put on the belt you had to test it every time.

It was a common occurrence for one of the balance shaft bearings to end up in the pan. This is why, to this day, that built and rebuilt engines are usually put together without balance shafts.

Did I mention the recall for bad timing belts?

With all these faults, these early DSMs were great cars when kept in good condition. The AWD turbo setup was the exact recipe the performance market needed. Keeping one in good condition meant working on it a lot. A generation of mechanics were created. I was one of those people. Now, with my Evo, I rarely put a wrench to it. I miss those old days.

It's no mystery. It's because they are now over 20 years old, can be picked up for less then a grand, and go very fast. Your usual DSM purchaser is not the type of person that will do maintenance and properly care for their car.

I've had my 1g since 2003 and it is an extremely reliable car. If you take the time to build it right, DSM's will love you for a long time in return. Wait until the EVO's 8's and 9's have been modified, romped on, and sold off (for cheaper and cheaper each time) for 20 years. They will end up just like the DSM's of the 90's.

Really this discussion was about the differences between the 4G63 motors, at least I thought. But since we are talking about DSM's, here is mine:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/atta...1&d=1335184157

http://www.dsmtuners.com/gallery/fil...b1e45c18_o.jpg

You know whats funny about 7-bolts and crank walk, call up Lucas or Aaron at English Racing and they'll tell you they've seen more crankwalked 6-bolts than 7-bolts.

Also, IIRC, the record for HP/L on a stock short block is still held by a 6-bolt. Something around 750hp on a dyno (of course the block didnt survive long).

That's because the seven bolts all crank walked years ago.

All motors can crank walk. I know of a bunch of them that " supposedly crankwalked had to do a lot with people were retards and don't do things right and the flywheel and clutch were not installed correctly causing the crank eat at the sides, along with the improper tq specs on the main caps. Majority of the "supposed" crank walks are problems with cluch not being installed correctly. Crankwalk was a product of the early 2g using a different 2 piece bearing and the motor not being properly oiled due to ****ty design.

Only ones that really had a problem were the 95 and early 96 before the new design of the 1 piece bearing that we use in the evo.

sad but true.. becoming the new dsm (no offense). i had hoped our cars would hold a little more like the supra, and usually the 9's do dpeending on their build, but not the earlier 8s.. oh well, the number of ct9a evos is only gonna get smaller

I'm not sure what you mean by "supposed" crank walk. To me, crank walk is crank walk. I was active on the DSMtalk forum when all this was happening. Even owners with automatic transmissions were experiencing crank walk. When an owner experienced crank walk the only thing to do was junk the engine. This was because nobody knew how to fix a crank walked block. People tried but the result was that they crank walked again. Six bolt swaps were all the rage.

About the time that Mitsubishi was ending production of the second generation DSM, Mitsubishi announced they had an engine available that had the crank walk problem addressed. I remember an owner purchasing and installing one of these engines but I never heard how it did.

I had 4 Eclipse 4g63 Gst & GSX. The last was built. I had around 12k in it. Yes its every bit as fast, but leaks and break downs were very common. I beat in my built Evo and don't think about it. The 90-94 motors were the best so if you were like me, and loved the 2g (95-99) you had a world of work a head of you. Cheaper to just get a Evo...lol.

Yeah isn't that sad. I read what some people do to there cars and I just shake my head.

I use the term supposed being anythign that goes wrong with the motors most dsmers say its crankwalk. Its just an excuse when they actually don't know wtf the problem is. I mean alot of what it was was an oiling issue. The bearings werent getting enough oil and when that happens **** breaks. I have seen so many people try to describe crankwalk and you ask them does your crank have any side to side in it? "well no" then your an idiot its not crank walk its something else. It just pisses me off that everyone jumps on that bandwagon. Whats even funnier is Chrystler used that same bearing on alot of the different 2 liter cars they had with no issue. Even the csx-vtn had the same style of bearings and them things were tanks. I mean I don't want to argue with anyone about it but your right if its crank walk its crankwalk but im just so tired of hearing its crank walk when its in fact not.

DSM's: fast and unreliable!!!!

Depends, fast yes I agree, unreliable I don't agree with. The car was never ment to be what they are today. If you build one properly and take every measure to make sure they will last you a long time they are very reliable. What people do not do is get one replace everything that has importance and just beat the **** out of them and they break. Remember they are anywhere from 22 years to 14 years old. So people who buy them even 10 years ago still didn't replace things that should be replaced and they break.

interesting read,although there seems to be some misinformation regarding evo thrust washers...03-06 evo blocks use 2 180 degree thrust washers on opposite sides of the main that aren't integrated into the main bearings...

I had a 6 bolt swap GSX a few years back and I agree with you completely!

You guys want to talk DSM, the new 4B11 is a true DSM, without the DSM name attached.

As I already wrote, DSMs were responsible for creating a generation of great mechanics. There was always something on the car that needed attention. And, the car appealed to young people, people who had tons of energy.

I remember a guy who was having trouble with his clutch. He pulled the transmission five times before he finally figured out that a piece of the clutch lining had come off and was wedged between the disc and pressure plate. But the best story is as follows:

There was a thread started on DSMtalk by a person who wanted to convert his normally aspirated car to a turbo. This was a common question and the normal advice given was to trade the car for a turbo. Doing a conversion just about required a donor car because everything was different and had to be swapped, starting with the engine.

With that advice given some fellow chimed in saying the job wasn't that difficult. He and his buddy, he wrote, owned several DSMs and they wanted to sell one. This was a normally aspirated car and they decided it would sell better if it was a turbo. So, they did the conversion.

Only one person responded to their ad., a father looking for a car for his daughter. The prospective buyer wasn't too hot on the idea of his daughter driving a turbocharged car so they swapped back to normally aspirated.

Great read. People always ask what the differences are, and I never knew there were too many differences, only mivec for IX's.

The thing is, any time a DSM breaks down, for any reason - somebody says "uh oh, CW." And there you go, the legend continues.

I drive my '98 GS-T more so then I do my Evo, and even though it now has a six bolt bottom, the car does well and holds up and doesn't have any issues. Other then the fact that it is not a 14 year old car and some things are wearing out - like I just did a rear wheel bearing last month. Other then that - no issues. I do think my Evo is put together better, but I don't blame that on Chyrsler or UAW autoworkers in Normal. It has a Japanese built engine and transmission and that's all that really matters IMO. Now that I don't race it or beat on it every time I get in it like I did years ago, the car has never even hiccuped.