Help - Suspension and ACD fighting?
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From: Springfield, IL
Originally Posted by boostedwrx
Have you got your car aligned? Just asking if you know what settings your currently running.
Originally Posted by ranmonbu
.....My car runs amazing at the track. Sounds like you have an ECU/Ignition/Fuel problem. Are there any tuners in your area that can give it a "test drive" to duplicate the problem while runing a datalog?
Ever go through like a big drainage pipe (in like a mall parking lot) where there's severe weight shifting? I remember doing this in my STi and the DCCD got 'confused' and the car felt like it studdered if I tried to speed up. I figured it was 'confused' as to which tire(s) to put the traction to. Pretty similar feeling really.
Last edited by boomn29; Oct 18, 2006 at 11:37 AM.
put the car into gravel and snow mode and see if you can get it to do the same thing...if you are lifting and the rear dif isnt locked the wheel spin could be read....but the centerdif dosen't control power....just how quick the car equalizes the f/r torque split...from what I've read...
The ACD has NOTHING to do with torque split. It is 50:50 all the time, every time, no matter what you do. All it does, depending on mode, is to control the speed of lockup in the front and rear diffs. It locks the fastest in Tarmac and the slowest in Snow (obviously). If you go back to the track again have a spectator check for tripoding and/or datalog to look for engine performance issues.
so if the dif hasn't locked (aka is open) the torque split IS affected....with the end of the car with the most traction getting the least torque just like any open dif.....otherwise the mitsu boys would have just inserted a spool to maintain the 50/50 bias.
You've got it backwards.
Open diff = equal torque distribution / different wheel speeds
locked diff = different torque distribution / equal wheel speeds
Note that a locked diff can only deliver equal torque when the tires have the same traction.
I believe I've experience this as well, and always thought it was just the inside front tire breaking loose for a just a moment. As you accelerate hard out of a tight corner, almost all of the weight on the inside front tire is lifted. Despite having AWD with a front LSD, the tire spins and hops slightly depending on the traction. The hopping feels like shuddering.
Open diff = equal torque distribution / different wheel speeds
locked diff = different torque distribution / equal wheel speeds
Note that a locked diff can only deliver equal torque when the tires have the same traction.
I believe I've experience this as well, and always thought it was just the inside front tire breaking loose for a just a moment. As you accelerate hard out of a tight corner, almost all of the weight on the inside front tire is lifted. Despite having AWD with a front LSD, the tire spins and hops slightly depending on the traction. The hopping feels like shuddering.
Last edited by ShiftySVT; Mar 10, 2007 at 05:55 AM.
No. The ACD is always a 50:50 split. It tells the front and rear diffs what speed to lock at.
No. Imagine your front tires are on pavement and your rear tires are on ice. If your diff is open, the rear tires will spin and your front tires will barely help pull. This is because without traction, the engine can't apply much torque to the rear wheels because they just spin freely. Because the diff is open the front wheels get the SAME torque, which is almost nothing so the car has a hard time getting going. Now imagine the same situation with a locked center diff. The car applies more torque to the wheels with traction and easily accelerates. Therefore, the whole idea of a limited-slip or locking differential is to apply more torque to the wheels with traction than the wheels without traction. Thus the only time the torque is 50:50 is when the diff is unlocked or when the traction of the tires is equal.
Last edited by ShiftySVT; Mar 10, 2007 at 07:12 PM.
so when my new 69 mustang with an open dif left only one black stripe I should have demanded a refund?..an open dif feeds power to the point of least resistance PERIOD...now if your hydralic ecu is noting the wheel speed diferential and starts locking the open dif the car will pull using the front wheels as the dif locks up......PLUS most if not all torque spliting locking difs(torsten helical style) require some torque on each side before locking. dont believe me? watch any torsten dif miata spinning the inside rear tire during hard cornering after lifting the tire off the track and converting their "locked dif " into an open one in the process...and finally clutch type lockers which do nothing but wait for the torque input then they LOCK both axles into ONE...unit....this lockup can be force, wheelspeed or hydraulic/electronic driven, but once a clutch type is locked up it is no longer a "dif"...(and why we use them on race cars....) and also why locked dif cars over steer faster...
Last edited by robi; Mar 10, 2007 at 06:19 PM.
i agree with robi, in a open diff situation if one tire sits on ice and the other on dry pavement, the 1 tire in the ice has almost no torque going to it because there's no friction with the ground. If the diff is 100% locked, both wheels have the same amount of torque applied therefore they spin at the same rate, however only 1 wheel contributes in pushing the car forward. That's the whole purpose of the locking diffs
Wrong. Your statements violate Newton's laws.
If you apply the same torque to two wheels with different traction, they will NOT spin at the same rate. If you spin both tires at the same rate (locked diff), the torque applied must be different if the traction is different.
If you apply the same torque to two wheels with different traction, they will NOT spin at the same rate. If you spin both tires at the same rate (locked diff), the torque applied must be different if the traction is different.
Wrong. Your statements violate Newton's laws.
If you apply the same torque to two wheels with different traction, they will NOT spin at the same rate. If you spin both tires at the same rate (locked diff), the torque applied must be different if the traction is different.
If you apply the same torque to two wheels with different traction, they will NOT spin at the same rate. If you spin both tires at the same rate (locked diff), the torque applied must be different if the traction is different.
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Can fellow owners help me diagnose something?
Ever hammer around a corner and have the car hesitate/studder for a moment, then have the power come back on? Somewhat similar to driving a 350Z or Mustang GT with traction control on - but not quite as a dramatic power shut-off.
Situation 3:
On the track. Taking an 'S' curve. First left, then right and hammer the throttle to 'gas out' and will usually drift towards the outside in 4th gear. A few times had the car like cut all throttle response for a brief moment. Not sure if the ACD is trying to sort-out possible traction loss?
I'm under hard acceleration - not braking. Running stock suspension with the Hotchkis Rear Sway set on medium - nothing weird. Always run the ACD on the Tarmac setting.
Ever hammer around a corner and have the car hesitate/studder for a moment, then have the power come back on? Somewhat similar to driving a 350Z or Mustang GT with traction control on - but not quite as a dramatic power shut-off.
Situation 3:
On the track. Taking an 'S' curve. First left, then right and hammer the throttle to 'gas out' and will usually drift towards the outside in 4th gear. A few times had the car like cut all throttle response for a brief moment. Not sure if the ACD is trying to sort-out possible traction loss?
I'm under hard acceleration - not braking. Running stock suspension with the Hotchkis Rear Sway set on medium - nothing weird. Always run the ACD on the Tarmac setting.
I was out at Gateway in St Louis this weekend and was able to duplicate this scenario every lap when I had a passenger with me. Oddly though; not by myself and it happens when trying to turn back to the right (turn 4).
I now run my rear swaybar on full stiff and run 255 RA1's. I'm assuming the wheel is lifting in the rear???
i think i've felt the same thing while hitting abrupt tight corners on the street. the car almost kicks you back through the steering wheel. severe torque steer from lifting the front inside tire?
i haven't thought or gathered enough about the mechanics of the lsd/acd system to have any idea of what is happening.
i have a stock mr suspension, am i getting enough roll to lift the inside front?
i haven't thought or gathered enough about the mechanics of the lsd/acd system to have any idea of what is happening.
i have a stock mr suspension, am i getting enough roll to lift the inside front?
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Update.
I'm pretty much convinced my issues are with a low fuel tank. If I go out for a session at even a 1/2 tank; that's too low. Must be a lot of sloshing going on when I'm turning!
I'm pretty much convinced my issues are with a low fuel tank. If I go out for a session at even a 1/2 tank; that's too low. Must be a lot of sloshing going on when I'm turning!
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