CVN!? Tuners feel free to chime in..
 

Recently I've hit a spell of bad luck with my X. I am sure some of you have read about a few engines blowing and I just happen to be one of those people. Now I know my tune didn't have anything to do with it. However, one problem I did have is, the dealer was able to tell that my car had been flashed. I was under the impression hat my car had been flashed back to stock, but the dealer was able to tell because of a change in the CVN number. My question is how in the heck do they know!?:crap: I would like to get my new x flashed but my only thing is I would like a program that won't change the CVN...or if it does I can have the car "flashed back to stock" and the dealer not find out. I am sure a few other people may encounter this problem in the event they need warranty work done to their vehicles. Once they see the computer is flashed they void your powertrain warranty f.Y.I...So if anyone has helpful suggestions I'd love to hear them..you all know how difficult it is to drive an untuned X versus tuned.

what did you have on your car, may i ask?

UR TBE with test pipe, FMIC, UICP and AMS short ram intake..

that's assuming you have a reflash as well? what did you reflash with?

well..it was either ecutek..or ecuflash..not sure...

I was flashed back to the stock map however..keep that in mind..I had some mechanical issue with the car..but had those mods on the car..after it was fixed..just wasn't flashed with another map...

I have AEM air intake, Test pipe and HKS high power exhaust! I was fast as hell on the track even modified 2008 STI couldn't poll as hard as me!
I haven't done FLASH YET!!!
I'm going to buy Cobb AP, In that case if i blow up my engine then I can bring back the factory map and still no one can find out i flashed my ECU!
So think little smart for those of you who want to flash their ECU :)

um. i think you're confused. cobb ap is equivalent to ecuflash. only difference being cobb ap is more user-accessible.

hm based on those mods you got...i really don't see how your engine could blow. those mods aren't exactly over-the-top either. bad stroke of luck i guess :crap: worst case, i suggest you replace the ecu entirely with an unflashed one and call it a day.

what happened to your engine anyway? i know you've been getting CELs, but the next thing is engine blow. what entailed?

well the car was running lean, and I replaced the MAF. The problem went away and I didn't have any issues. I bought an o2 Wideband and installed it just to make sure my AFR's were where they were suppose to be. The AFr's where fine. So since I made another appointment to get custom tuned, I thought it might be a good idea to go ahead and throw on the intake..I think there is where I made my mistake. I think since the intake leans the car out it might have done it a little too much..the internal engine damamge was caused because of a lean condition, so...that's how it happened. Running an intake without a tune can be very very dangerous. So, I plan on leaving this car stock...but I want to know if I can get flashed without the CVN being changed...while I love the idea of the Cobb AP, I think it's limited compared to a custom tune. However, with the AP I heard it doesn 't change the CVN, which is awesome. But, custom dyno tunes can max out everything, giving better results...idk..I am hoping there is some sort of software that can provide a tune..yet be undetectedable by mitsu...

get a seperate ECU to tune on. problem fixed.

judging by what you just said, your tune may very well have something to do with it. you modified the tune and slapped on mods on top of that. if you were on unflashed i'd say you should have been safe, given the rich factory tune. it also sounds like your tuner didn't give any free room for the numbers and pushed it to the limit. something simple like an intake alone should not blow your engine.

since your cvn has been changed, your best course of action is flash the ecu to stock maps, or a new ecu if you fancy that. from what i know, the cvn (calibration verification number) is based on what you have for the map, and what VIN you have (pertaining to model i think, not specific car). it's like a CRC32 scheme of sorts. as long as you have a cvn that matches the :mitsu: db's cvn for your model, you should be okay. note: *should.*

you took it into the dealer already, so i don't know if they have a record of that or something. go to another dealer when you're ready just in case.

Thanks EndGame!!! that cleared up alot of confusion..but I am starting from scratch with a brand new X..so tell me..can I get a tune and not have the CVN changed..I have a full turbo back, FMIC, UICP, and intake sitting around collecting dust..I really want to mod this new evo asap..it will kill me to drive this car and nothing is done to it...

what are you doing with your old X? (the one that got the warranty denied)

The dealer is buying it back

That is bull****...I know for a fact that there is no way to detect a flash if it is returned to stock maps properly! Ect-tek im 100% sure! Ecuflash im 99% sure correct me if im wrong on the ecuflash, will never happen. It sounds like they were bluffing or your tuner F*cked you.

there buying it back because the motor blew? Like some kind of lemon law ting or something?

Do I even want to ask how that kind of loss is working out?

It's cheaper to get a new evo versus putting in a new motor...they are saying 13k for the motor..not including labor..so..I might as well buy a new one with a warranty..lol..it actually not that bad price wise..but I want/ know I will need, a tune..but I don't want that darn CVN number to change..

the dealer is full of SH!T. I reflash evos all the time to stock for dealer work an NEVER had a problem... theres somthing fishy there bro.

specialy Xs all stock pushing over 330... no problems.

so are you saying you put the intake on then got a tune? or you got a tune then put the intake on without retuning it?

Did you still owe $ on the other X (with the blown motor)? if you don't mind me asking.

btw, I pm'd chris at AMS about the intake and he states:

most likely it wasn't flashed back to stock. cvn should have been the same as long as the maps have same values.

as long as you change any value on any map, your cvn changes. you really should have a stock map handy and make sure it's flashed back to stock if it happens again (i hope it doesn't).

13K!!!?!?!??! That seems a bit steep, the VIII complete engine is only 8K, I would assume even if the block was destroyed that something would be intact. For 13k you can get an RB26DETT with the front clip and tranny, so I find it difficult to believe that the 4B11 is that much.

Did the dealership show proof that the CVN number has been changed?

Umm how is 13k not cheaper than a new evo? If the dealership builds the motor then the motor they build will come with a warranty.

If it was mine I would have one hell of a motor built for 13k buy a reputable builder. I am sure one of the vendors on here could do you up a real nice setup for that price but that is just my .02

Last option for me would be to find one out of a salvage car and give a big ole F U to the dealership. Why spend more money with them if they dont help you?

I was kinda thinking the same thing..I tried to b.s. my way out of it..but really couldn't considering I knew the thing had been flashed..But they may have dove deeper b/c I was coming in for an engine..they didn't want to have to shell out money for that..

They just said the district rep came in and looked at the ECU..saw the CVN didn't match..with mitsu stuff..and voided out my warranty..they completely voided the powertrain warranty..and even if I put a brand new motor in the car..my power train would have still been voided. So I thought it was be less of a headache to start fresh. The GM of the store offered to buy it back and sell me a new one..the cost of that was cheaper considering what I owed on the car..combined with the cost of an engine and labor..so yeah..basically I am paying the same amount either way..but now I'll have a new car to start over with...so it will be a learning experience..but I am really afraid to get flashed...:crap:

Im sorry man but I really think the dealer was bluffing.:crap:

We're not the first group to be in this boat...

http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showth...=Warranty+tune

The hope would then be Mitsubishi implemented it analogous to GM.

Sounds like two things:

1) Your tuner didn't reflash you back to your car's stock map. He may have put on a stock map, but it wasn't the stock map from your car. Sorry to hear about that because your tuner screwed you.

2) Your dealership is going to put a new engine your old car for about $5k or less. Of course they wanted to buy it back because they stand to make a ton of money on it as a used car.

Good luck with the new car. Use a different tuner for this new one.

Agree 100% I would have a nice talk with your tuner! Thats why i stick with the big boys like AMS they wont do you wrong like your tuner did! {thumbup}

Um i don't know why anyone didn't ask this:


WHO Tuned Your Car

??

I am wondering how you blew your motor with that little amount of mods and a flash? Since the motor would not normally blow with just those bolt-ons, I'm going to assume it was either your tune, or you mis-shifting. I guess you could've also turned up the boost.

I just want to know so I do not have the same problem.

They can count the number of times the car is flashed. They obviously have all dealer flashes registered to the VIN. All they have to do is simple subtraction to see how many extra times its been flashed.

I got tuned at AMS..and the from another forum they were saying that since I modded the car after the tune, there might not have been much wiggle room for mods..especially ones that lean the car out. I don't think it was the tune..but I am just wondering..how I can get my CVN back to the factory one, if I get flashed again. I didn't turn the boost up..although I have read that adding an intake can cause boost spike..not really sure about this..

I'm at a loss for words....I can't believe this thread is for real. Even if all of this were true I would have "Licked my Wounds" and had a Real Shop fully build my motor and get it done right. Andy why get another Evo knowing you're not going to keep it stock. Do you think you're going to fool them the next time? Good luck, I don't have the money to be this Nieve.

LOL..I did get tuned at AMS..

Yeah I know that is why the dealer is buying the car back..they will be able to sell it for more than they bought it back for and in the process make more money b/c they are selling me a new one. I would use the same tuner simply because, AMS is local and they have a damn good rep..I really don't know what happened I was under the impression that the car had the stock map.:crap: But since I have all these bolt-ons sitting around..then...I guess..I will just slap them all one at once and get tuned in a month or so...

:shocked: Foot in mouth :shocked:

WOW..so ams gave u the the newer map when the dealer knew you had the old 1 so they knew it was flashed not by them, or the dealer bluffed? I know for a fact from personal experience with AMS that when they; if they return it back to stock there is no count or anything detectable by the dealer or the regional rep! 100% sure about this.

Unless they found some freeze codes with out of stock range data or something. Not sure about that tho...did u disconnect the battery to clear out the computer?

you sir are very lucky. I guess I would've got a new X also then putting in a new motor. plus, you get the new car smell lol.

so from what i read is that ams tuned your lightly modded evo and it blew?

There is the slight possibilty that AMS put a stock rom in your ECU that has a different ID than your original one.

The Evo X came with the following ECU IDs in the US:

52680015
52680017
52680018
52680020

The majority of the Evo Xs that I have seen have the 52680017. Some have had the factory reflash done at the dealer and they get a sticker under the front passanger side of the hood with the 52680020 ECU ID.

It is possible that AMS flashed your car with the 52680020 rom but you did not have the sticker under the hood indicating that you have had that doen at the dealer. When the dealer read the ECU and found the 5268020 rom ID w/o a matching sticker they knew that your car has been flashed and voided your warranty.

That is one possibilty. Or there is indeed a flash counter in the ECU that tells the dealer how many times the ECU has been flashed.

wasnt it proven that there is no flash counter?

I have a few questions and please don't take offense to these. They may just help me understand a few things.

Are you at a fairly young age?

Are you completly financially responsible for this transacton?

Is this your first performance vehicle and if not how long have you owned performance vehicles?

Do you do any work to your car?

Have you had a tuner explain to you what they are doing when tuning or do you even care what changes they are making? I ask this because I want to know what changes someone is making to my rom and I pay close attention to the time they spend with my car.

In the end I hope you are happy with your new car but what I truely don't understand is that you have posted in other places that you think there is something wrong with the 4b11 then why are you going back with another one especially one that you are already planning on modding and loosing the warranty a second time?

Yes there is no flash counter! The only thing i can think of is they bluffed or mitsu got confused/ forgot they re flashed it with their new map or ams made a bobo, its possible i know they made no mistake when it came to my ecu getting returned to the stock map.

How do you know for certain that there is no flash counter? There are tables that have not been discovered yet. A flash counter could be one of them.

I have 1st hand experience on this matter. I had a Regional Rep tear through my ecu which was flashed by AMS same as the OP, but mine came up clean he wasn't so lucky.

Good to know {thumbup}

That leaves two possibilities:

1. AMS flashed the ECU with the 020 rom id and the owner did not have the underhood sticker for that flash. When the dealership read the rom and found the "wrong" ID, they voided the warranty.

2. The dealership was bluffing and the owner of the car admitted to the car being flashed from stock and then back to stock.

I say a combination of both, that and the fact the owner probably caved when they said they weren't going to fix it. I believe that the dealership saw this guy coming a mile away, and saw him as one big dollar sign.

I highly doubt that your warranty is voided, they, based on your actions and what was seen or not seen, denied service, totally different from denying warranty.

I would have taken this past the dealership and the district rep on to Mitsubishi, and probably would have spoken to a lawyer....probably would be significantly cheaper than buying a new car.

How about someone with two copies of the same version ROM (that originated separately from different cars) just do a binary diff on the two and see what happens. On a Windows box you do that from the command prompt with "fc /B ROM1 ROM2" to see if there is any difference (e.g. checksum within ROM).

I'm not saying that would prove no counter or flashing countermeasure exists, just if CVN as per GM's implementation existed definitively.

Just be aware .. not all ROM IDs are interchangeable ..

Most cars should have ID's 17 or 18 .. or older series 15 ..

ROM 20 it seems is used under certain conditions for certain cars .. I've gone thru it partially and it looked .. for lack of better words 'strange' .. I suggest not using that ROM id until more is known ..

There is an encrypted time counter not located on the ECU (I think) ..
CVN is just the checksum value .. when we were beta testing without knowing about the checksum.. once you changed anything, your ECU is locked out until you flash back to stock ..

Back to flash counter .. non of us dare to say there is NO COUNTER .. it doesn't matter what you use ( Ecutek, ECUFlash, AP, Stock etc) .. if there's a counter .. it'll change .. we're only lucky that mitsubishi have not use it yet ..

Subaru uses an encrypted serial number that is changed everytime you flash .. They now use that number to determine if your ECU has be reprogrammed .. same chipset as ours .. doesn't bode well ;)

In the US the 20 ID is a factory re-flash to deal with some of the stutter that some Evos were having. I looked at the fuel map and found it to be slightly leaner up top than the 017 rom ID.

I keep the same rom ID when I tune an Evo X. If a car came with the 020 rom ID, then I will use the same rom ID to tune it. Most of the Evo Xs have the 017 rom ID. Yesterday I tuned the first Evo X that had the 018 rom ID.

Actually you guys just mentioned a point I knew nothing about. I do indeed have a sticker under the hood, and I didn't make mention of this to my tuner..had I shown him this I might have been able to get the right map..the dealer would not have known. I know for future reference.

Sorry I don't mean different in that sense :p .. never bothered to look at the maps ..

The subroutines and function calls are slightly different .. mostly idle and fuel control outputs ..

:lol: wow...
I would say that I'm a fairly young age..in my early 20's if that helps..

I do work on my vehicle, I installed all of my bolt-ons...I'm an operating engineer by trade..so I'm not exactly mechanically challenged.:lol:

That being said...yes..I'm finicially responsible for this transaction..mommy and daddy don't help with this one..{thumbup}

This is my first performance vehicle.. I've mainly driven luxury vechiles..bmw/ lexus...

I do have the service manual for this car..and I'm doing my research as I go. I don't know everything..but the concepts that relate to this vehicle aren't rocket science..

Lastly to assuage your curiosity. I love the lines and the styling of the X. Yes, I've posted other things saying the 4b11t may have a weak link..I think it may be a quality control issue. Some drivers say they are able to abuse their vehicles to no end and they run fine. However, other drivers with light mods blow there engines just rounding a corners or cruising along. Pretty odd don't you think

All in all I'd say I'm learning a decent amount through this..thanks for a feed back!!!

Excellent thread. Subscribed!!

On the Ecutek ECU reflashing on Evo 8-9 there was a license placed on the ecu acknowledging that the ECU was licensed. Even when going back to stock, the license forever remained on the ECU.

If you had an Ecutek reflash, it may be possible that there is extra data on the ECU representing a license and changing the checksum.

I messed with the mitsu mutIII scan tool for a while one day trying to find a flash counter and could not find such a thing. You can view which flash is in it but once again you can not go by a sticker on the hood since many techs do not fell out and add the sticker. I will try to find out more on The mut side of what is able to be seen.

Can you read VIN, CIN and CVN with the mutIII tool to see if anything changes?

NO...Not on the x there is nothing left that the dealer can see!

what does ams tunes with??

EcuTek

Actually it's there on the EvoX too. Vehicle code, shop code, license code, and one more code that we haven't figured out yet.

omg how many times are we going to beat the dead horse ???

Ask any shop they will tell you there is no way of finding a flash once it has been restored to stock properly...Take the phone book and call every tuning shop and ask them...you will have your answer!

Once again i have personal experience in this matter! I had my car @ the dealer and the regional rep tore my ecu apart and found no traces! Unless you have the "hidden code evo" they might find it. But i didn't get the special edition evo like you. So please stop talking about this "secret code". THERE IS NONE

If your so worried don't flash it! {thumbup}

I don't care what any shop says, it's there. And yes, I do have the code to make the ECUTek license appear in ECUFlash.

There are 4 but I'll just give you part of 1.

<table name="ECUTek Code" category="Misc" address="8100" type="1D" level="1" scaling="Hex8"/>

When you enter this into the xml of ECUFlash (put in evo10base) you will see "ff"on a car that has never had an ECUTek tune. When you use this on a car that has had ECUTek, you will see part of the license number such as "24" or whatever.

NyRsNy, please do not speak before you know the truth...... it really makes you look {thumbdwn}

You are wrong! It's called "Check Sum", and can be checked by any Mitsubishi dealer. And since your Tuned by AMS (Eric maybe) why not ask them.

Um don't you think that when a shop puts your ecu back to stock the would restore the original mirror image of the factory flash which does not contain any of this at all.

OR

The dealer does not give a shiat about some random code or they cant locate it? I duno nor do i care because the dealer WILL HONOR THE WARRANTY IF FLASHED!


Oh and by the way SIC i do know! I don't sit home and play with code, i actually have hands on experience with Mitsubishi reps who love to void out peoples warranty's. You are not really helping people here, because you don't know for a fact if that will cause a warranty to get voided. So instead of talking about something you read about in a book get some experience, and don't speak before you know the truth... it really makes you look :thumbdown

Thanx for your time

You said that the EvoX didn't have an ECUTek license code that remains in the ROM so I proved you wrong. Just admit that you were wrong, it okay :)

I could care less what is left behind after a flash, all the op cares about is if it can be detected by mitsu or not.

We don't need tech details, just what will happen if he gets another flash, and clearly i answered his question it cannot be or even if it can be the rep does not care and will authorize all work to be done.

Thanks for the info SiC.

Its good to know.

NyRsNy, this isn't geared towards you so please don't start flaming me.

As you all know, the ECUTek system requires a license for each vehicle and the user will pay for this licensing fee. When you flash your car with ECUTek it writes codes into an unused sector of the ECU. It writes the license code, shop code, vehicle code, and one other sub code. When it is reverted back to the stock maps with ECUTek it leaves this code in the ROM. The more than likely reason for this is so that the user doesn't have to pay for another licensing fee when he decides to tune with ECUTek again.

Now if you make a backup with ECUFlash and revert back to stock with a fresh untouched virgin ROM, there is no code so you should be safe.

Also, I do agree with NyRsNy in the fact that Mitsubishi can't see the left over ECUTek code. From what I've seen, the MUT-III system Mitsu uses can only see the ROM revision and it doesn't do a checksum test or file/hex compare.

Sorry but I'm going to have to agree with NyRsNy on this one..kinda no reason to beat a dead horse. I was told from my tuner that it's a good idea that I bring a thumb drive or blank Cd so he can copy the exact stock map. In the event I have to go back to the dealer they shouldn't be able to tell that the computer was touched. NyRsNy has been flashed back to stock successfully and yeah he's 100% right, the district rep with go through the computer with a fine tooth comb to see if it has been altered. I here what your saying Sic and I do appreciate the info all good points from everyone, but I do have my answer now. I just have to be alot more carefully in the future with these cars and realize you gotta pay to play.

Wait so are you saying that your car didn't have the stock map on when you took it to the dealer now? Or you think the sticker tipped them off?

I had the stock map but it wasn't the stock map for that car I guess. The looked at the sticker and what was on file with Mitsu..since it denied match up..they denied it. I won't be going back to that dealership for anything major..or minor for that matter..those guys are douche bags. Before they even took the motor apart they wanted to accuse me of running NOS..wtf!?

come on man - you ran enough NOS to melt the welds on the intake!

^^LMAO!!! now me and the mad doctor gotta rip apart the block to replace the piston rings you fried..had me..you never had your car..

yeah that dude watches way too many fast and the furious movies..people use meth/water..why would I run nos to get more power messing up 20$ spark plugs..lol.

All I can say is wow.

Am I the only one that feels the OP is just "taking it" and accepting it without putting up a fight or even complaining as loud as any of us would be?

That part makes me think he's guilty, and he knows it. No one has their sports car motor destroyed, then says "well maybe next time I guess".

Its sad to hear about reps voiding out warranties left and right. Something just feels fishy about this thread is all. He's too unbothered which comes off odd to me. Maybe he has millions, or we didnt hear all of the conversation between him and the dealer.

Either way.... Good luck man.

Wow.

This is what i understand from you ImsoevoX.

The dealer denied warranty.

They will let you trade it in for a huge loss.

They in turn will either call Mitsu and say the engine crap and get a free engine, or greatly discounted engine.

They will sell it as a used car and make huge profit.


If i was you, i skip all that and have a shop just do the work and put some better components on the engine.

Best of luck.