What is an INTAKE really worth when you are TUNED?
Mike W., I think you've missed something in the thread. Part of the discussion is that an intake that uses a different sized MAF housing throws the ECU into load levels it is not actually in, resulting in big power gains that are not realistic if the car is tuned for the intake.
Your post isn't disproving the point TTP is trying to make.
Your post isn't disproving the point TTP is trying to make.
David, I don't think that is the original theory of "this" thread. I believe it was of topic in one of the many threads that were closed or had deleted posts. This thread is more generic in discussion as to whether or not any intake system will produce any more power than stock when an ECU tuning modification is made.
There was so much good information in those lost theads. Even you and TTP have confirmed that removing the intake restriction has resulted in gains in power. TTP test results confirming this without any filter element and you confirming this with a cone style filter. Both with the stock MAF housing. Both netting about 8-10awhp. TTP utilized the stock inlet tube but I don't know what you (Buscher) used; stock or smooth modified? There was good discussion elsewhere as well as to the benefit of quicker spool up for the turbo when utilizing a cone filter and smooth inlet tube/pipe.
It is tiring to keep up with this topic in many different locations. And unless someone goes out out their way to post test results of before and after results of an intake system WITH a recalibrated and proper tune taking advantage of everything available and not throwing the results with a bad retune, we will never know the real gains.
I will say it again. There is no disadvantage of an intake system. There is a lot of speculation up to this point. There are a lot of knowledgeable people providing diverse opinions on the subject. It is safe to say that a low restriction/high flow filter element and a smooth intake tube should net positive power results even with a tune. The more power you make, the bigger the gain. The MAF housing is a seperate discussion, but in the end makes no difference after a tune adjusts for it alterations in values.
There was so much good information in those lost theads. Even you and TTP have confirmed that removing the intake restriction has resulted in gains in power. TTP test results confirming this without any filter element and you confirming this with a cone style filter. Both with the stock MAF housing. Both netting about 8-10awhp. TTP utilized the stock inlet tube but I don't know what you (Buscher) used; stock or smooth modified? There was good discussion elsewhere as well as to the benefit of quicker spool up for the turbo when utilizing a cone filter and smooth inlet tube/pipe.
It is tiring to keep up with this topic in many different locations. And unless someone goes out out their way to post test results of before and after results of an intake system WITH a recalibrated and proper tune taking advantage of everything available and not throwing the results with a bad retune, we will never know the real gains.
I will say it again. There is no disadvantage of an intake system. There is a lot of speculation up to this point. There are a lot of knowledgeable people providing diverse opinions on the subject. It is safe to say that a low restriction/high flow filter element and a smooth intake tube should net positive power results even with a tune. The more power you make, the bigger the gain. The MAF housing is a seperate discussion, but in the end makes no difference after a tune adjusts for it alterations in values.
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David, I don't think that is the original theory of "this" thread. I believe it was of topic in one of the many threads that were closed or had deleted posts. This thread is more generic in discussion as to whether or not any intake system will produce any more power than stock when an ECU tuning modification is made.
There was so much good information in those lost theads. Even you and TTP have confirmed that removing the intake restriction has resulted in gains in power. TTP test results confirming this without any filter element and you confirming this with a cone style filter. Both with the stock MAF housing. Both netting about 8-10awhp. TTP utilized the stock inlet tube but I don't know what you (Buscher) used; stock or smooth modified? There was good discussion elsewhere as well as to the benefit of quicker spool up for the turbo when utilizing a cone filter and smooth inlet tube/pipe.
It is tiring to keep up with this topic in many different locations. And unless someone goes out out their way to post test results of before and after results of an intake system WITH a recalibrated and proper tune taking advantage of everything available and not throwing the results with a bad retune, we will never know the real gains.
I will say it again. There is no disadvantage of an intake system. There is a lot of speculation up to this point. There are a lot of knowledgeable people providing diverse opinions on the subject. It is safe to say that a low restriction/high flow filter element and a smooth intake tube should net positive power results even with a tune. The more power you make, the bigger the gain. The MAF housing is a seperate discussion, but in the end makes no difference after a tune adjusts for it alterations in values.
There was so much good information in those lost theads. Even you and TTP have confirmed that removing the intake restriction has resulted in gains in power. TTP test results confirming this without any filter element and you confirming this with a cone style filter. Both with the stock MAF housing. Both netting about 8-10awhp. TTP utilized the stock inlet tube but I don't know what you (Buscher) used; stock or smooth modified? There was good discussion elsewhere as well as to the benefit of quicker spool up for the turbo when utilizing a cone filter and smooth inlet tube/pipe.
It is tiring to keep up with this topic in many different locations. And unless someone goes out out their way to post test results of before and after results of an intake system WITH a recalibrated and proper tune taking advantage of everything available and not throwing the results with a bad retune, we will never know the real gains.
I will say it again. There is no disadvantage of an intake system. There is a lot of speculation up to this point. There are a lot of knowledgeable people providing diverse opinions on the subject. It is safe to say that a low restriction/high flow filter element and a smooth intake tube should net positive power results even with a tune. The more power you make, the bigger the gain. The MAF housing is a seperate discussion, but in the end makes no difference after a tune adjusts for it alterations in values.
:mi tsu:
: chug:
I was answering this question by the OP in the first post:
Also other people put out some questions and answers in this thread that I think can be served by the information.
Mike W
There are a lot of intakes in the market for the X. Which ones actually flow more air and make power without increasing boost or leaning the AFR, raising ignition timing? Do any???
Mike W
OK, sorry, maybe this isn't the same thread I thought it was and I am the one that was off topic, if that's the case, sorry Mike W.
I agree that any filter kit I have personally seen has added power, AMS's filter, our's, K&N drop in and the AEM filter kit. The topic I was referring to is how much of that power is from the filter kit alone and how much is being made because of the MAF calibration be manipulated from a different sized MAF housing.
We use the stock MAF housing on our kits and still see a good power increase from our filter kit, which is a simply K&N cone filter with a nice SS bracket to hold the MAF housing in place and of course the carbon fiber shield to keep the idle stable.
I agree that any filter kit I have personally seen has added power, AMS's filter, our's, K&N drop in and the AEM filter kit. The topic I was referring to is how much of that power is from the filter kit alone and how much is being made because of the MAF calibration be manipulated from a different sized MAF housing.
We use the stock MAF housing on our kits and still see a good power increase from our filter kit, which is a simply K&N cone filter with a nice SS bracket to hold the MAF housing in place and of course the carbon fiber shield to keep the idle stable.
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OK, sorry, maybe this isn't the same thread I thought it was and I am the one that was off topic, if that's the case, sorry Mike W.
I agree that any filter kit I have personally seen has added power, AMS's filter, our's, K&N drop in and the AEM filter kit. The topic I was referring to is how much of that power is from the filter kit alone and how much is being made because of the MAF calibration be manipulated from a different sized MAF housing.
We use the stock MAF housing on our kits and still see a good power increase from our filter kit, which is a simply K&N cone filter with a nice SS bracket to hold the MAF housing in place and of course the carbon fiber shield to keep the idle stable.
I agree that any filter kit I have personally seen has added power, AMS's filter, our's, K&N drop in and the AEM filter kit. The topic I was referring to is how much of that power is from the filter kit alone and how much is being made because of the MAF calibration be manipulated from a different sized MAF housing.
We use the stock MAF housing on our kits and still see a good power increase from our filter kit, which is a simply K&N cone filter with a nice SS bracket to hold the MAF housing in place and of course the carbon fiber shield to keep the idle stable.
Originally Posted by TTP Engineering
One of OUR pet peeves is intakes such as the HKS RS which in our opinion is designed specifically to reduce the MAF signal and increase performance by increasing ignition timing and leaning out the AFR. This is a job we believe should all be addressed in TUNING, not by the intake itself. We firmly believe that an INTAKE system should be responsible for its own job of increasing airflow and making power by that sole responsibility.
There are a lot of intakes in the market for the X. Which ones actually flow more air and make power without increasing boost or leaning the AFR, raising ignition timing? Do any???
There are a lot of intakes in the market for the X. Which ones actually flow more air and make power without increasing boost or leaning the AFR, raising ignition timing? Do any???
Originally Posted by TTP Engineering
For some time now we have discussed what the definition of a high performance intake system means to us and why WE believe one should be used on a vehicle.
There are a number of aftermarket "performance" intakes available in the marketplace for an Evo X performance minded consumer to invest their money in.
We could go along with the flow of things and try and sell and aftermarket intake to every potential buyer that calls or comes into the shop here, trying to earn a commission on each sale, but thats just not how we work.
First of all this NEW Evo X has a totally different type of mass airflow meter. It is NOT like the Evo 8-9 karman vortex meter which is subject to large changes in readings based on the type of filter chosen to use. In the past filters such as the HKS RS intake would LOWER the MAF signal in turn leaning out the fueling and increasing ignition timing whereas the APEXi intake cone would RAISE the MAF reading which would add fueling and reduce timing, make the car hit boost cut limits much faster.
One of OUR pet peeves is intakes such as the HKS RS which in our opinion is designed specifically to reduce the MAF signal and increase performance by increasing ignition timing and leaning out the AFR This is a job we believe should all be addressed in TUNING, not by the intake itself. We firmly believe that an INTAKE system should be responsible for its own job of increasing airflow and making power by that sole responsibility.
There are a lot of intakes in the market for the X. Which ones actually flow more air and make power without increasing boost or leaning the AFR, raising ignition timing? Do any???
One of the tests we did was to take the car to 30psi run full tilt and tuned, AT THAT POINT, then remove the "restriction" stock air filter and measure the difference in performance, AFR, BOOST, torque and WHP. This test is able to be run on this vehicle because it is a hotwire MAF as it would not work on a karman vortex airflow meter like the EVO 7-9 as it would change the LOAD in the ECU as well as timing and AFR.
The ECU controlled boost maps remained the same.
The TUNING was unchanged.
The result in boost was about 0.5psi on average increased from removing the filter from about 4900rpms to redline.
The results in power and torque were only about 10-11whp peak to peak and an average of about 8-10whp across the board from 4900rpms-redline.
Our summary is that the stock intake/filter is well designed from Mitsubishi and there is not a great restriction in the intake to start with. When you are searching for power and performance gains from an intake system that actually flows better and you allow TUNING to take care of AFR, TIMING and BOOST and the intake to flow the air which it is its job to do, then the gains from an intake system based on the notion that one FLOWS better than the stock intake are very low, but notable.
For those of you that do not plan to have the Evo X TUNED for the modifications used, then there are other intake systems available that WILL change the MAF readings from using a larger MAF housing for the stock sensor to be transfered over to. There will also be intake systems that will use multiple boost control solenoid hoses in order to raise boost over stock.
For those of you that have no plans to be professionally tuned, these might be options for you. However for the ones that will be tuned by ZChip, reflash, another professional method, then the aftermarket intakes may not benefit you very much and a dry panel filter or cone may suit your needs better. Just don't expect huge numbers from an intake alone
There are a number of aftermarket "performance" intakes available in the marketplace for an Evo X performance minded consumer to invest their money in.
We could go along with the flow of things and try and sell and aftermarket intake to every potential buyer that calls or comes into the shop here, trying to earn a commission on each sale, but thats just not how we work.
First of all this NEW Evo X has a totally different type of mass airflow meter. It is NOT like the Evo 8-9 karman vortex meter which is subject to large changes in readings based on the type of filter chosen to use. In the past filters such as the HKS RS intake would LOWER the MAF signal in turn leaning out the fueling and increasing ignition timing whereas the APEXi intake cone would RAISE the MAF reading which would add fueling and reduce timing, make the car hit boost cut limits much faster.
One of OUR pet peeves is intakes such as the HKS RS which in our opinion is designed specifically to reduce the MAF signal and increase performance by increasing ignition timing and leaning out the AFR This is a job we believe should all be addressed in TUNING, not by the intake itself. We firmly believe that an INTAKE system should be responsible for its own job of increasing airflow and making power by that sole responsibility.
There are a lot of intakes in the market for the X. Which ones actually flow more air and make power without increasing boost or leaning the AFR, raising ignition timing? Do any???
One of the tests we did was to take the car to 30psi run full tilt and tuned, AT THAT POINT, then remove the "restriction" stock air filter and measure the difference in performance, AFR, BOOST, torque and WHP. This test is able to be run on this vehicle because it is a hotwire MAF as it would not work on a karman vortex airflow meter like the EVO 7-9 as it would change the LOAD in the ECU as well as timing and AFR.
The ECU controlled boost maps remained the same.The TUNING was unchanged.The result in boost was about 0.5psi on average increased from removing the filter from about 4900rpms to redline.
The results in power and torque were only about 10-11whp peak to peak and an average of about 8-10whp across the board from 4900rpms-redline.
Our summary is that the stock intake/filter is well designed from Mitsubishi and there is not a great restriction in the intake to start with. When you are searching for power and performance gains from an intake system that actually flows better and you allow TUNING to take care of AFR, TIMING and BOOST and the intake to flow the air which it is its job to do, then the gains from an intake system based on the notion that one FLOWS better than the stock intake are very low, but notable.
For those of you that do not plan to have the Evo X TUNED for the modifications used, then there are other intake systems available that WILL change the MAF readings from using a larger MAF housing for the stock sensor to be transfered over to. There will also be intake systems that will use multiple boost control solenoid hoses in order to raise boost over stock.
For those of you that have no plans to be professionally tuned, these might be options for you. However for the ones that will be tuned by ZChip, reflash, another professional method, then the aftermarket intakes may not benefit you very much and a dry panel filter or cone may suit your needs better. Just don't expect huge numbers from an intake alone
OK, so here is the meat of the current new thread post which was posted after the original topic discussion was deleted. There is a lot going on here in terms of what each of us is trying to specifically address and it gets very cloudy when multiple topics are discussed in the same thread. Who is on topic and who is off topic is difficult to decern.
The question I believe that was meant to be address is: Will an intake system benefit an Evo X that has undergone an ECU tune. The answer is yes. I don't know why TTP can't just state this fact plain and simple. David has politely agreed that this is the case as have other vendors publicly herein. Furthermore there are many other vendors that have restrained themselves from this debate that also feel the same way.
In reading the first post over, there are some conflicting statements within the same message. TTP has found that there was an 8-10whp increase in their dyno test, but they also state later that one should not expect huge numbers from an intake system. They also begin the topic stating that they believe one should be used. I think that 8-10whp is significant for any intake system after a tune and nothing to laugh at.
I think TTP is trying to state that changing the MAF diameter or utilizing other methods to lean out a/f ratios or affect boost levels by various manufacturers is negated once a tune is in place. What is funny is that no one here has ever said anything to to contrary! We all know that. So once a tune is done, the question again is will it do anything more than stock. We all know that yes it will, but not at the same level as without the tune. Why TTP won't directly answer this question without picking a fight is beyond me. Regardless of what intake system is being utilized, any change in table values for various parameters altered by the intake system are readjusted by the tune (at least for all the current ECU tuning software. I cannot speak for the Zetronic's ZChip, since I still don't know completely how that system works and if it is capable of adjusting the same tables as the other software offering). Therefore there is no disadvantage of using any intake system with a tune if the tune accounts for this modification.
I hope we can stop arguing over this particular matter and keep discussing the merits and real test results for all the intake systems pre and post tune. It is a good topic and a good thread subject. I just might need to be restated in a new thread not started by any particular vendor. Remember this community is for us all to share information about our cars and how to make them better. Vendors are obviously welcome to share their input to further the discussion. What vendors should be careful of is not monopolizing a particular topic or thread in the community open threads. There are vendor specific thread that can debate all day over a particular subject and be hosted by that particular vendor. I have no problem with that and enjoy reading those type of posts to get a different perspective on things, sometime biased, but still worthy information.
With all due respect to TTP, please just state if you feel an intake system after a tune does or does not make any power and is something that you feel is necessary or not. If the Zchip is not a good fit with an aftermarket intake system because of its inherent limitations, then just say so and we will all be ok with that. Not every product can be everything to everyone. Zetronics has done a great job producing a niche product for our cars on your request, and for some people that is great. I just seems that you want everyone to believe that the Zchip is the best data tuning option available with comparable results to all the others. While it is a good option for some, the best option is an individual choice and there is no right or wrong answer here. Just don't be so defensive and sensitive about your product. We all take punches every now and then and should just bounce back with a smile.
Last edited by smgevo; Jan 4, 2009 at 04:50 PM.
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If the Zchip is not a good fit with an aftermarket intake system because of its inherent limitations, then just say so and we will all be ok with that.
The ZChip has worked great in every application we have put it in thus far.
Not every product can be everything to everyone. Zetronics has done a great job producing a niche product for our cars on your request, and for some people that is great.
I just seems that you want everyone to believe that the Zchip is the best data tuning option available with comparable results to all the others. While it is a good option for some, the best option is an individual choice and there is no right or wrong answer here.
Just don't be so defensive and sensitive about your product. We all take punches every now and then and should just bounce back with a smile.
Lets keep this thread ON-TOPIC, which is the value of an aftermarket intake system on a TUNED 4b11t engine.
OK, sorry. I'll play by your rules. I also appologize for any spelling errors in the past and in advance. No disrespect to Zeitronix.
I will accept your position that TTP does not feel an intake system from any manufacturer is worth while and has no benefit over a drop in filter. Thank you for clarifying that. I can then assume ,however, by your post that you feel that a drop in filter has some benefit. I will respectfully disagree with your position as will others, and some may agree with you. The topic is what value an intake system has in a tuned vehicle, and TTP's opinion is that there is none. End of story.
I also remember you saying that another manufacturer's intake system did not work with your tuning option and you did not recommend it, and I therefore conclude that you may have a compatibility problem with some intakes and they may not work so great with your tuning options. We don't need to bring that up again, nor do we need to mention names at this point. It's in the past now. I also personally believe, and I am putting words in your mouth now, so please correct me if I am wrong, but you do not recommend utilizing any intake system that changes A/F ratios and boost, and prefer to use only the stock box and attachments, with the filter element being neutral. And that is fine.
The reason I bring up the Zchip and Zeitronix specifically is that this is the ECU system you use and sell. If I was to respond to a post by AMS, ETS, Buscher, etc., I would also refer to their specific intake, ECU tune, exhuast, etc. by name as it is relevant to do so. I don't see a problem with relating the a vendor/tuner/product together.
It is quite possible that other ECU tuning software/products work differently with various intake systems as compared to the Zchip ECU offering TTP sells. And I think this is a significant point of my discussion and my continued push to be on this particular subtopic of the original topic you started in this thread. There may just be some benefit with certain combinations of ECU software and intake hardware. And it could be fairly accertained that TTP, and other vendors/tuners/manufacturers, don't have the right combination to show gains with the products they offer. On the other hand, some vendors/tuners/manufacturers may just have something that does make a bit of extra power with mixing their ECU software and intake systems.
There is much benefit to the community in understanding all vendor's positions and knowing which intake systems work best with which ECU tuning options. That's the main point here. No hard feelings. Just want hard facts from anyone who wishes to post within this thread or any other. I honestly don't think this reasoning is off topic. Thank you for you continued responses.
I will accept your position that TTP does not feel an intake system from any manufacturer is worth while and has no benefit over a drop in filter. Thank you for clarifying that. I can then assume ,however, by your post that you feel that a drop in filter has some benefit. I will respectfully disagree with your position as will others, and some may agree with you. The topic is what value an intake system has in a tuned vehicle, and TTP's opinion is that there is none. End of story.
I also remember you saying that another manufacturer's intake system did not work with your tuning option and you did not recommend it, and I therefore conclude that you may have a compatibility problem with some intakes and they may not work so great with your tuning options. We don't need to bring that up again, nor do we need to mention names at this point. It's in the past now. I also personally believe, and I am putting words in your mouth now, so please correct me if I am wrong, but you do not recommend utilizing any intake system that changes A/F ratios and boost, and prefer to use only the stock box and attachments, with the filter element being neutral. And that is fine.
The reason I bring up the Zchip and Zeitronix specifically is that this is the ECU system you use and sell. If I was to respond to a post by AMS, ETS, Buscher, etc., I would also refer to their specific intake, ECU tune, exhuast, etc. by name as it is relevant to do so. I don't see a problem with relating the a vendor/tuner/product together.
It is quite possible that other ECU tuning software/products work differently with various intake systems as compared to the Zchip ECU offering TTP sells. And I think this is a significant point of my discussion and my continued push to be on this particular subtopic of the original topic you started in this thread. There may just be some benefit with certain combinations of ECU software and intake hardware. And it could be fairly accertained that TTP, and other vendors/tuners/manufacturers, don't have the right combination to show gains with the products they offer. On the other hand, some vendors/tuners/manufacturers may just have something that does make a bit of extra power with mixing their ECU software and intake systems.
There is much benefit to the community in understanding all vendor's positions and knowing which intake systems work best with which ECU tuning options. That's the main point here. No hard feelings. Just want hard facts from anyone who wishes to post within this thread or any other. I honestly don't think this reasoning is off topic. Thank you for you continued responses.
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Originally Posted by smgevo
I also remember you saying that another manufacturer's intake system did not work with your tuning option and you did not recommend it, and I therefore conclude that you may have a compatibility problem with some intakes and they may not work so great with your tuning options.
Originally Posted by smgevo
We don't need to bring that up again, nor do we need to mention names at this point. It's in the past now. I also personally believe, and I am putting words in your mouth now, so please correct me if I am wrong, but you do not recommend utilizing any intake system that changes A/F ratios and boost, and prefer to use only the stock box and attachments, with the filter element being neutral. And that is fine.
Originally Posted by smgevo
The reason I bring up the Zchip and Zeitronix specifically is that this is the ECU system you use and sell. If I was to respond to a post by AMS, ETS, Buscher, etc., I would also refer to their specific intake, ECU tune, exhuast, etc. by name as it is relevant to do so. I don't see a problem with relating the a vendor/tuner/product together.
TTP-Engineering is reflashing the Evo X GSR, MR and Ralliart ECU. We also program the ZChip for all these cars as well.
It is NOT relevant what tuning method is used as if you would have read the original post, it states just that.
Originally Posted by smgevo
It is quite possible that other ECU tuning software/products work differently with various intake systems as compared to the Zchip ECU offering TTP sells. And I think this is a significant point of my discussion and my continued push to be on this particular subtopic of the original topic you started in this thread. There may just be some benefit with certain combinations of ECU software and intake hardware. And it could be fairly accertained that TTP, and other vendors/tuners/manufacturers, don't have the right combination to show gains with the products they offer. On the other hand, some vendors/tuners/manufacturers may just have something that does make a bit of extra power with mixing their ECU software and intake systems.
Last edited by TTP Engineering; Jan 5, 2009 at 09:06 AM.
