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These bolt-ons can be installed while still using the Evo X's stock tune, correct?
I'm keeping the stock cat and stock tune on my Evo X. Currently I'm intending on installing an MAP investment cast manifold and an AMS downpipe, but there are no Evo tuners in my area. So I have read many old posts on this topic. It seems that the following bolt-ons will be safe to daily-drive and even WOT, as long as you still have the stock cat and stock tune:
Meanwhile, the following bolt-ons will require a tune. Even the conservative stock tune won't fly with any of them:
Sources: [1]
Originally Posted by Frankiago
Intake changes diameter of the maf sensor housing, it will register less air than is actually blowing by because it's tuned with 2.5? 2.75? Ionno... It's tuned from the factory with whatever factory diameter is.
Downpipe won't do much to the stock tune that the ecu can't compensate for. UICP and LICP do the same thing as stock, UICP you just benefit from replacing a balloon with a pipe. And as stated the BOV will prevent the leakage your stock BOV might be producing. That results in a boost spike that you're likely not tuned for.
Originally Posted by SiliconTek
No, the only thing the FMIC is going to get you is cooler manifold temps which means less knock overall. Don't worry about it if you had a decent tune before.
Originally Posted by Golden
1) Adding a FMIC doesn't require a retune. You will flow more air into the engine due to a colder air charge. In order for this to happen, you must draw in more air. The ECU very easily compensates for this because it can measure the change. It has a temperature sensor in the Manifold and the MAF measures the increased air flow. It simply adds more fuel to make the same air to fuel ratio as before.
2) As alluded to before, a colder air charge means less knock potential. But this is assuming that you've heat soaked your old IC. And I'm pretty sure Bradze does on the track. 3) Adding a FMIC will NOT lean you out. Nor will adding a hard pipe.
Originally Posted by Splattj
As long as you leave the cat alone, and it's recirculated, you can run [the AMS Widemouth Downpipe] without a tune but you won't likely see any gains either.
Originally Posted by SilverJester
The downpipe, bov, and UICP, should be fine without a tune. As long as the BOV a recirculated type.
Originally Posted by ETS Michael
No re tune needed if you switch down pipes. It should be very close.
Originally Posted by Leo
Hello!
You can run this cast manifold sans tune however there will not be much hp/tq gained without the tune. -Leo
Originally Posted by Mugen_Zensou
My buddy is running a AEM intake on his 2011 MR, nothing else, no tune, leaned it out pretty good. LTFT is around 10.3%. not sure how 2009's take to upgrades, but i definately wouldn't do a BOV without a tune, especially because there is no benefit from it unless your tuned for higher boost like stated earlier
Originally Posted by Xtra_Slo
Yes 100% I spoke to AMS directly and they told me I was good to go, no tune needed or anything like that but just to make sure before and after the fuel pressure is the same. Mine was within 1 psi after the change
__________________ I almost bought an AEM intake system (which might work if everything else is stock), but considering the risk to running too lean without a tune, I'm deciding against spending money in a way that prevents me from sleeping assured at night:
Originally Posted by SpeedCircuit
Honestly, [with MAP manifold, HKS cat-back, AMS downpipe, UICP and FMIC, retaining stock intake and stock cat] you shouldn't hurt anything with the stock tune since it's conservative. Your car just won't run as quickly as it should.
Originally Posted by CanEvo2012
I would be very cautious with statements like this. My stock tune knocked 9 counts with exhaust and cone filter on local gas here when finally logged. I would not risk it as some will make it fine, others will blow depending on temperature, gas quality, driving style, etc.
Originally Posted by CanEvo2012
All of these mods [MAP manifold, HKS cat-back, AMS downpipe, UICP and FMIC, retaining stock intake and stock cat] are safe to drive with, so go ahead and install them. Just drive normally, don't floor it. The danger is usually in high boost areas of the powerband.
Originally Posted by ScottSpeed21
Listen to me...
You do not absolutely, positively need a tune. The stock tune is so pig rich that you will be perfectly fine even if you had every bolt on part for the car. Will a tune help pull out more power? Of course it will, but it's not a life and death situation like everyone makes it out to be... When you get yourself a Cobb AP, run the maps that are meant for the AMS intake. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...es-3336579.jpg ^a picture of an adorable cat because in this thread we are talking about keeping my existing cat. |
Why not do an etune? There are many excellent options.
Spending all that money without a tune is a waste in my opinion. If you do go that route, the manifold and down pipe won’t do much with the stock turbo. edit: same with the lower ic pipe. |
Originally Posted by Monster4
(Post 11965549)
Why not do an etune? There are many excellent options.
Spending all that money without a tune is a waste in my opinion. If you do go that route, the manifold and down pipe won’t do much with the stock turbo. edit: same with the lower ic pipe. I'm not installing that entire list. I already have an HKS cat-back installed. I'm only intending on installing the MAP investment cast manifold and an AMS downpipe (because the stock manifold is cracked). I might either:
In a nutshell I'm not trying to make more power. I'm just trying to repair the car. Edit: It's cost-inefficient to have the car pro-tuned for more than necessary. Let's say someday I do earn a big year-end bonus even as unlikely as in this economy, I might choose to install an AEM intake, a Cobb 3-port EBCS, an HKS BOV with recirc, and a high-flow cat, so I have "stage 1 full bolt-ons" and then have an e-tune. |
I would hold off on the intercooler, especially if thicker than stock if you don't plan to tune yet, it could throw it off just enough.
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You should really just tune the car. If you have the money for these parts, you have the money for a tune. Otherwise, put a cat back on it, and leave it alone.
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Originally Posted by Lightsaber
(Post 11965552)
I'm not installing that entire list. I already have an HKS cat-back installed. I'm only intending on installing the MAP investment cast manifold and an AMS downpipe (because the stock manifold is cracked). I might either:
In a nutshell I'm not trying to make more power. I'm just trying to repair the car. Take the money from the licp and get an intake/ebcs/etune. That will transform your car and keep it safe. With the Map exhaust manifold, make sure you use new oem Belleville washers. If you are doing the work yourself, this thread could help: https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...ame-turbo.html I need to update with a few additional tools, tricks I learned along the way. Keep us posted. |
Originally Posted by Monster4
(Post 11965614)
Take the money from the licp and get an intake/ebcs/etune. That will transform your car and keep it safe.
With the Map exhaust manifold, make sure you use new oem Belleville washers. If you are doing the work yourself, this thread could help: https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...ame-turbo.html I need to update with a few additional tools, tricks I learned along the way.. I'm talking to a few mechanics. Some of them have a similar opinion as RobbieOh's. They also think that buying a big intercooler hoping to reduce knocks in the "high boost areas of the powerband" may not justify the cost. Since I have the stock cat, the stock tune, and the leaky stock BOV, the boost won't spike like with an aftermarket BOV and the AFR is unlikely to lean out. Maybe get an upper intercooler pipe and that it: keep intake, stock 2-port boost controller, the intercooler, and everything else stock. Looking into e-tune choices, I will likely have to
...if I do decide to go with an e-tune just for the MAP manifold and AMS downpipe. As I personal preference, I would rather have an in-person pro-tune when the car receives some mods that require a tune. |
It's great to have other Evo owners chiming in, and feel free to post your thoughts on this topic too!
Fearing that too many bolt-ons might upset the stock tune, I decided to hold off not only an intercooler like RobbieOh said, but also the AMS widemouth downpipe. I brought only the MAP investment cast manifold to my shop for installation. At 103k miles (166k km), 2 of the bolts on the turbo side are stubborn and completely refused to get out. The shop had to bring in a professional welder to extract the 2 bolts. The MAP manifold, however, bolts on very well, allowing all the stock heatshields to be reused. It's big and expensive 8-hour job, taking my shop a whole work week as they waited and hoped that the penetrant would loosen the bolts. With only a cat-back and now the MAP investment cast manifold, my Evo X runs pleasantly well as I took her back from my shop. The MAP manifold makes the stock turbo feel and sound more.. um, profound, so to speak. Both the turbo spool up and blow off have become noticeably smoother and less burdensome. Originally with the drivetrain stock, the turbo spooled up around 3300 RPM normal driving and around 3150 RPM if pre-spooling. Now with the MAP manifold, the turbo spooled up ~3150 RPM normal driving and ~2900 RPM if pre-spooling. The exhaust note has not become more throaty as it would with an aftermarket downpipe, but I do feel the faster spool up and slightly increased acceleration. The highway MPG has not changed at around 23. The city MPG has decreased from 16.5 to 14.5, perhaps because I have been too boost-happy with my right foot. There is no check engine light or any signs of overboosting. My butt dyno speculates that installing the MAP manifold (while retaining the stock cat and stock tune) might have increased the peak boost by about 0.5(?) psi and torque by maybe less than 10(?) lb-fts. The stock-like solid feeling and supposed reliability is very reassuring. I pray to the Machine God that I will not be troubled by the likes of overboosting or rod damage from torque with this set up. My shop asked me to return after 3 weeks or 500 miles, so they can re-tighten all the manifold bolts. Parts used for replacing the stock manifold with the MAP one:
Empirically, the Evo X stock tune can handle all the bolt-ons up to 26 PSI. (Compare to the 25 PSI peak boost target that tuners commonly aim for with a FBO stock turbo Evo X.) Any more bolt-ons that drive the peak boost above 26 PSI would necessitate a pro-tune:
Originally Posted by Snakes709
Heres what i did to my car....
K&N drop in filter + AMS DP + T1R Res TP = 23psi AMS DP + T1R Res TP + UICP + AMS CAI = 26psi AMS DP + T1R Res TP + UICP + AMS CAI + ETS 4" IC + LICP + Tomei Catback = 30psi All that parts and no tune. Once i had all those parts on, any time i went WOT, which was only once, the CEL would come on and the car would start bucking like a horse. I then installed my injectors, 3port and fp red and got a tune.
Originally Posted by TheBlade
I did intake, UICP, LICP and an ETS 3.5" FMIC and CBE with no tune, never saw boost spikes.
In the research I did before doing that setup for awhile, I was seeing people with overboost problems also having a testpipe. In the future if I'm in a more cushy financial position and do feel like modding the Evo, however, I see myself trying out a 3-port and a wideband first. And I would definitely get an e-tune (or in-house dyno tune) with those. Photos: https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.evo...ae4973d5e0.jpg MAP Investment Cast Exhaust Manifold. https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.evo...32509d9bc5.jpg Parts used to replace the manifold. The MAP EVOX-ICEM-HW (lower left) is included in the MAP manifold package. https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.evo...f37bb7b299.jpg Stock manifold taken out. She has served for 103k miles. https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.evo...726c9cc120.jpg Details of the stock manifold. Note the crack. There are more cracks inside. The black deposits felt like sand, which could be crystallized carbon graphite. https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.evo...51f180909b.jpg MAP manifold installed under stock heat shields. |
I would be checking the bolts and nuts between the manifold/turbo and the manifold/head VERY regularly.
In my experience, waiting 3wk or 500 miles would have resulted in a fire. 50 miles of no boost driving had several of my fasteners back out. If things do comes loose, replace the Belleville washers. Mine did not stay in place until they were installed correctly. |
So I have bolts and nuts checked and re-torqued today. All the bolts and nuts have stayed tight and not turned, except the long MAP-manifold-to-turbo bolt which has been stretched. It's likely from the heat cycles. The long bolt is unique to the MAP investment cast manifold design. The OEM manifold has short bolts at all four corners. The amount of stretch has to be offset by re-tightening the long bolt by 90° clockwise.
I will check again the MAP-manifold-to-turbo bolt in time. I intend to keep it posted. |
The shop brought in the master mechanic to examine the turbo-to-exhaust bolts.
He first recommends that I replace the single long silver MAP bolt (M10x1.25x80mm, metric class 10.9), because once a bolt is stretched, it's unlikely to retain the necessary torque again. I myself have indeed heard similar things on the Miata Forum:
Originally Posted by wonsup
Just get a new set of studs and locking nuts. This solved my problem.
Once they are stretched they will not hold the same amount of torque and will come loose again and again. We also reviewed the Evo X's Service Manual and the hardware that MAP supplied. The Nord-lock and flat washers are not appropriate for the manifold-to-turbo bolts. The Service Manual (page 11B-22 & 15-21) requires double Belleville washers face-to-face for each manifold-to-turbo bolt, which is necessary to maintain a tight seal without over-stressing the bolts when hot. I should have read what AMS said previously on the other forums with more attention:
Originally Posted by AMS
Replace the gasket with an OEM gasket, replace that missing stud with the stock bolt and coat the threads with anti-cease (not too heavy on it). Use the stock washers as well. Each bolt has two washers. These washers are very important in keeping the bolts from backing out. They washers have a conical shape to them and need to be installed face to face like a clam shell.
This should hold up just fine. If you for some reason still have issues you can safety wire the bolts (not going to be easy but it can be done). Bolt part number: MN119783 Washer part number: MR187848 (two needed per bolt) So I ordered the 10 OEM Belleville washers (p/n: MR187848) and 2 sets of MAP hardware (p/n: EVOX-ICEM-HW) without using the included MAP washers. The master mechanic was able to successfully extract the single long silver bolt (M10x80), and replace the Nord-lock washer with double Bellevilles. However, the 3 black MAP allen key bolts have become stuck. One of them would come out just half-way, and then completely stuck. It appears that either the MAP allen key bolts' threading is not precise, damaging the turbocharger's threads; or that the heat expansion coupled with flat washers have done that. The master mechanic torqued back the MAP allen key bolts. He advised me that my options include (1) keep driving the Evo and forget about this miserable experience. When next time that I have to replace, say, the turbocharger, just be sure to order all Mitsubishi OEM hardware, especially the Belleville washers (p/n: MR187848) and the 3 manifold-to-turbo bolts (p/n: MN119783). Alternatively, I can (2) order the hardware now (STM Mitsubishi OEM exhaust manifold stud & nut kit, STM Mitsubishi OEM turbo hardware, and the 3 OEM gaskets), and have the MAP investment cast manifold re-installed. They will have to bring in a professional welder again to extract the bolts. Hopefully the threads on the turbocharger can be repaired simply with a tap. If not, the worst case is that I would have to pay the labor and also a new OEM turbocharger. https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.evo...d7ce03efcd.jpg The MAP hardware (p/n: EVOX-ICEM-HW) comes with Nord-lock and flat washers. They are inappropriate for the manifold-to-turbo bolts. https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.evo...13e670b86e.jpg Mitsubishi OEM heavy-duty super washers (p/n MR187848). They are Belleville spring washers. 2 are needed for each manifold-to-turbo bolt. https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.evo...77a73e72f8.jpg I have pre-assembled the Belleville washers like clam shells for a fresh set of MAP hardware. https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.evo...cdf4738957.png The correct way of installing double Belleville washers is mentioned in Evo X Service Manual 11B-22 and 15-21. https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.evo...af385ce599.png The double Belleville washers like a clam shell can act as a spring, absorbing the heat expansion. They maintain a tight manifold-to-turbo seal without over-stressing the bolts. |
I've read on multiple posts that nothing beats those OEM belleville washers!
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Praise the Machine God, all-skillful and all-wise! {thumbup} The manifold issues are finally resolved. I've brought the Evo X to a different shop. They are experienced with Ralliarts and STI's. And they have all 8 of the OEM Belleville washers (MR187848) properly installed.
There the master mechanic compared different hardware options, and recommended Mitsubishi OEM hardware. The OEM hardware uses two M10x1.25x35 hex bolts (MN119783) for manifold-to-turbo, unlike ARP or JDC options using stud-and-nuts. The top left turbocharger hole has threads damaged by the seized stud, so he drilled it and used a M10x1.25x40 hex bolt with a nut. We bought this M10x40 bolt with a nut from a specialty hardware store. It's the Class 10.9(?) medium carbon heat-treated steel for automotive exhausts that the shop supplies my local Mitsubishi dealer with. I also bought the replacement OEM gaskets (1555A417 and 1515A184) for this job. It took the master mechanic 11 hours. The Evo X runs like a dream now. Lesson learned: Never use the MAP (3 flat & 1 Nord-lock) washers included in the MAP investment cast manifold kit! Instead, use double OEM heavy-duty super Belleville washers (MR187848) for each of the 4 manifold-to-turbo holes, as instructed by the Service Manual 11B-22. The bolts, nuts, and studs are up to anyone's preference. Just use OEM or higher quality ones. https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.evo...3482284227.jpg The Evo X's stock TD05-12T turbo at 105k miles. The top left hole has inner threads damaged by a seized stud. The top right hole, in this picture, has a temporary bolt screwed in for holding a heat shield, as the mechanic had to heat up the seized stud for extraction. |
Glad to hear you got it sorted!
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