Mitsu confirms SportBack Lancer
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Joined: Feb 2006
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From: Dirty Jersey
first off diesel used to be about 1/2 of the price of gasoline in europe, but has steadily been inching up because of the sky rocketing price of crude oil. IT does take less processing than gasoline but not so much as to justify it being 50% cheaper than gasoline.
you might want to read up on the new generation of diesel engines that are not of what you described. the are not loud, pullute less than gasoline and for sure are more efficient than their gasoline counterparts.
VW is about to release a VW Polo turbodiesel, (you might know but its slightly smaller car than say a US Rabbit) that is supposed to get about 75mpg, now if thats not kewl, i dont know what is; its not going to be as quick as the evo but it puts a Prius to shame in the "green" dept. Eventhough these are still gasoline based engines, at least its progress, as the saying goes "Rome was not built in a day."
I also do recognize that your weight comment is very appropriate. As cars get more advanced and safety requirements are more advanced (IMO so that more companies can force their products on us the consumers ie: TPMS, 17 standard airbags, more crush zones, blah blah blaj) cars get heavier and burn more fuel. What about the 14.7:1 AFR BS? Cars could safely cruise at higher AFR and hence use less fuel. WHat about more strick inspections and educating people to properly keep their tires properly inflated, and implementing other technologies that save fuel, what about public transport, what about STOP making the gas guzzling trucks, We could list a whole bunch of other things, i am sure
otherwise, i am looking forward to seeing what the new lancer RA hatchback looks like, hoping for a 5 speed option from the get go and not in 2010.
2010 Subaru Legacy Turbo Diesel will be interesting to see, but thats in over a year from now on
you might want to read up on the new generation of diesel engines that are not of what you described. the are not loud, pullute less than gasoline and for sure are more efficient than their gasoline counterparts.
VW is about to release a VW Polo turbodiesel, (you might know but its slightly smaller car than say a US Rabbit) that is supposed to get about 75mpg, now if thats not kewl, i dont know what is; its not going to be as quick as the evo but it puts a Prius to shame in the "green" dept. Eventhough these are still gasoline based engines, at least its progress, as the saying goes "Rome was not built in a day."
I also do recognize that your weight comment is very appropriate. As cars get more advanced and safety requirements are more advanced (IMO so that more companies can force their products on us the consumers ie: TPMS, 17 standard airbags, more crush zones, blah blah blaj) cars get heavier and burn more fuel. What about the 14.7:1 AFR BS? Cars could safely cruise at higher AFR and hence use less fuel. WHat about more strick inspections and educating people to properly keep their tires properly inflated, and implementing other technologies that save fuel, what about public transport, what about STOP making the gas guzzling trucks, We could list a whole bunch of other things, i am sure
otherwise, i am looking forward to seeing what the new lancer RA hatchback looks like, hoping for a 5 speed option from the get go and not in 2010.
2010 Subaru Legacy Turbo Diesel will be interesting to see, but thats in over a year from now on
Anyway, EU started all this crap with CO2 emissions but why do you think diesels in passenger cars haven't taken off in USA? It's because California has a very strict Particular Matter emission standards, they are over 6 times higher than EU standards. And a fact of a matter is that even modern diesels still produce a whole lot more PM than equivalent gasoline units. EU started all this CO2 crap because it's a lot more difficult to design diesel engines with low PM numbers. Gasoline engines emit less PM because of the better refined gasoline they require.
As far as torque goes, I haven't seen even one comparison that a diesel of equivalent displacement would be faster than a gasoline counterpart (you name it, 0-60, 1/4 mile, track times). And to top it all off, diesel engines are more expensive. Diesels have been very popular in Europe (and basically only Europe) because governments subsidized (controlled) the prices of fuel but even now the price of diesel fuel is slowly evening out with regular gasoline because demand for it is very high. Anyway, in my opinion diesel engines only make sense in large commercial trucks and other work/off-road type of vehicles, but for a regular road gasoline units still are supreme.
Anyway, hybrids and diesels are just temporary solutions for the energy demand problem, I think electric, hydrogen power cars are where it's really at. They all still require energy to produce electricity and hydrogen but the energy produced to energy needed to produce ratio is a lot higher than with hybrids/diesels. Plus electric cars will allow for more imaginative designs as most of the exhaust/transmission/engine parts will not be needed anymore.
look we can go round and round on this until there is no more crude in the ground so this is my last point in this debate
i just re-read my last post and i no where did i mention demand for diesel and how it affects prices of it or how lack of diesel cars in us relates to it so I am not sure how the first paragraph you wrote below relates to my previous response. First off, diesel and gasoline are both made out of the same stuff, crude oil, In the end it, its just a quick decision what to make of it, so if there is more demand for gasoline, make more gasoline, and likewise with diesel. Supplying less diesel to increase its price is then just a big scam by oil companies to make more per gallon sold on diesel (my educated guess)
When it comes to emissions, we could compare the types of emissions and how much of them a particular gasoline and diesel car engine emits (for the sake of this discussion, lets assume that we are comparing the most efficient of both engines with same displacement) and i am sure that each engine would emit more of certain type of pollutant than the other (these things can be compared against several), but what is the true net pollution of each engine? Maybe you can point me to a scientific study that will show that its the diesel engine. By the way, why do you dislike EU so much, they might actually be right on diesel; it certainly doesnt mean that its the only technology they embrace, after all you are right, diesels and hybrids are only an interim solution since crude will run out at some point. To take this further, why not analyze the entire gasoline v. diesel production process and how much pollution can be attributed to it per gallon of each fuel. My guess is that since gasoline takes more to make, it will also take more pollution to make it. Then lets move one to the actual combustion, you cant dispute that an equivalent gasoline engine will yield less MPG, and guess what, if it takes less fuel to take you somewhere using diesel, i would argue, that will also yield less pollution (again assuming we are comparing the most efficient of both engines and yes, with same displacement
) . Again, these are just common sense conclusions but you are free to dig up the details if you have the ambition.
As far as torque goes, i did not say anything about 0-60 times quarter mile although the longer the distance the more of a chance the diesel has to outpace the gasoline engine (here again if we are to compare numbers, it would have to be best of both engines, with same displacement and no any type of forced induction) Its a known fact that diesel engines tend to have more torque, mid to high range of rpms so acceleration say going 60mph at say 3500RPMs and up.
Anywho i will put my chips on the diesel technology for the next few year while hydrogen and other weird fueling methods are being developed.
PEACE
P.S. one other thought, as i was driving into work this morning, it might be the new england fast-nervous pace but people here just dont know how to drive, or they just use their cars to get their frustrations out, agressive, fast acceleration. If most people slowed down a bit, did not have to WOT it from one red light to the next, car pooled more and did not take 7 trips to "run errands" each day, we would drive less, pollute less, use less fuel.
But even then, all that extra gas would end-up bought up by China, India, and other economies that we jump-started by outsourcing. what a mess
i just re-read my last post and i no where did i mention demand for diesel and how it affects prices of it or how lack of diesel cars in us relates to it so I am not sure how the first paragraph you wrote below relates to my previous response. First off, diesel and gasoline are both made out of the same stuff, crude oil, In the end it, its just a quick decision what to make of it, so if there is more demand for gasoline, make more gasoline, and likewise with diesel. Supplying less diesel to increase its price is then just a big scam by oil companies to make more per gallon sold on diesel (my educated guess)
When it comes to emissions, we could compare the types of emissions and how much of them a particular gasoline and diesel car engine emits (for the sake of this discussion, lets assume that we are comparing the most efficient of both engines with same displacement) and i am sure that each engine would emit more of certain type of pollutant than the other (these things can be compared against several), but what is the true net pollution of each engine? Maybe you can point me to a scientific study that will show that its the diesel engine. By the way, why do you dislike EU so much, they might actually be right on diesel; it certainly doesnt mean that its the only technology they embrace, after all you are right, diesels and hybrids are only an interim solution since crude will run out at some point. To take this further, why not analyze the entire gasoline v. diesel production process and how much pollution can be attributed to it per gallon of each fuel. My guess is that since gasoline takes more to make, it will also take more pollution to make it. Then lets move one to the actual combustion, you cant dispute that an equivalent gasoline engine will yield less MPG, and guess what, if it takes less fuel to take you somewhere using diesel, i would argue, that will also yield less pollution (again assuming we are comparing the most efficient of both engines and yes, with same displacement
) . Again, these are just common sense conclusions but you are free to dig up the details if you have the ambition.As far as torque goes, i did not say anything about 0-60 times quarter mile although the longer the distance the more of a chance the diesel has to outpace the gasoline engine (here again if we are to compare numbers, it would have to be best of both engines, with same displacement and no any type of forced induction) Its a known fact that diesel engines tend to have more torque, mid to high range of rpms so acceleration say going 60mph at say 3500RPMs and up.
Anywho i will put my chips on the diesel technology for the next few year while hydrogen and other weird fueling methods are being developed.
PEACE
P.S. one other thought, as i was driving into work this morning, it might be the new england fast-nervous pace but people here just dont know how to drive, or they just use their cars to get their frustrations out, agressive, fast acceleration. If most people slowed down a bit, did not have to WOT it from one red light to the next, car pooled more and did not take 7 trips to "run errands" each day, we would drive less, pollute less, use less fuel.
But even then, all that extra gas would end-up bought up by China, India, and other economies that we jump-started by outsourcing. what a mess
Diesel fuel is cheaper to make but it's the demand that increases the price in US. Every truck runs on diesel. Lack of diesels in passenger cars does not mean there is no demand for it.
Anyway, EU started all this crap with CO2 emissions but why do you think diesels in passenger cars haven't taken off in USA? It's because California has a very strict Particular Matter emission standards, they are over 6 times higher than EU standards. And a fact of a matter is that even modern diesels still produce a whole lot more PM than equivalent gasoline units. EU started all this CO2 crap because it's a lot more difficult to design diesel engines with low PM numbers. Gasoline engines emit less PM because of the better refined gasoline they require.
As far as torque goes, I haven't seen even one comparison that a diesel of equivalent displacement would be faster than a gasoline counterpart (you name it, 0-60, 1/4 mile, track times). And to top it all off, diesel engines are more expensive. Diesels have been very popular in Europe (and basically only Europe) because governments subsidized (controlled) the prices of fuel but even now the price of diesel fuel is slowly evening out with regular gasoline because demand for it is very high. Anyway, in my opinion diesel engines only make sense in large commercial trucks and other work/off-road type of vehicles, but for a regular road gasoline units still are supreme.
Anyway, hybrids and diesels are just temporary solutions for the energy demand problem, I think electric, hydrogen power cars are where it's really at. They all still require energy to produce electricity and hydrogen but the energy produced to energy needed to produce ratio is a lot higher than with hybrids/diesels. Plus electric cars will allow for more imaginative designs as most of the exhaust/transmission/engine parts will not be needed anymore.
Anyway, EU started all this crap with CO2 emissions but why do you think diesels in passenger cars haven't taken off in USA? It's because California has a very strict Particular Matter emission standards, they are over 6 times higher than EU standards. And a fact of a matter is that even modern diesels still produce a whole lot more PM than equivalent gasoline units. EU started all this CO2 crap because it's a lot more difficult to design diesel engines with low PM numbers. Gasoline engines emit less PM because of the better refined gasoline they require.
As far as torque goes, I haven't seen even one comparison that a diesel of equivalent displacement would be faster than a gasoline counterpart (you name it, 0-60, 1/4 mile, track times). And to top it all off, diesel engines are more expensive. Diesels have been very popular in Europe (and basically only Europe) because governments subsidized (controlled) the prices of fuel but even now the price of diesel fuel is slowly evening out with regular gasoline because demand for it is very high. Anyway, in my opinion diesel engines only make sense in large commercial trucks and other work/off-road type of vehicles, but for a regular road gasoline units still are supreme.
Anyway, hybrids and diesels are just temporary solutions for the energy demand problem, I think electric, hydrogen power cars are where it's really at. They all still require energy to produce electricity and hydrogen but the energy produced to energy needed to produce ratio is a lot higher than with hybrids/diesels. Plus electric cars will allow for more imaginative designs as most of the exhaust/transmission/engine parts will not be needed anymore.
Last edited by pltek; May 7, 2008 at 06:10 AM.
New generation diesel (especially turbo ones) are particularly exciting because they are vastly more efficient and now also have pretty good performance with low emissions. You can pretty easily make a 2L turbo diesel with 200 hp and about 275tq that gets incredible gas mileage. If US oil companies would stop being stupid about their excessive profits on diesel along with the government not making diesel engine manufactures jump through new hoops every year, we could have a great selection of these cars in the US. If the gas price where not more than premium, I would definitely buy a diesel car as my daily
pltek is right on the money. I am trying to put together an article on diesel right now. Such BS is the price. Here are a couple graphics i got from the energy administration. From the two, you can deduce that the main variable is the cost of refinement which includes profit. Gasoline (which cost more to refine) is at about 26 cents where diesel is at 81 cents per gallon. That means if they make say 5 cents of each gallon of gasoline, they are making at least 60 cents on diesel. My theory is that due to the rising price of crude, oil companies have opted not to raise gasoline prices accordingly due to the inevitable public outcry. Instead, they make their big profit on diesel which we all pay for in the products we buy whether we know it or not. [end rant]
On the emissions side, the new ultra low sulfur diesel combined with a new generation clean diesel car produces less carbon dioxide pollution (green house gases), but more general pollution or soot. Soot is the pollution you can see. Regulations being put in place in teh US are slowly requiring Diesel to be as good or better than their gasoline counterparts in every type which is very difficult
On the emissions side, the new ultra low sulfur diesel combined with a new generation clean diesel car produces less carbon dioxide pollution (green house gases), but more general pollution or soot. Soot is the pollution you can see. Regulations being put in place in teh US are slowly requiring Diesel to be as good or better than their gasoline counterparts in every type which is very difficult
Last edited by CharlesJ; May 9, 2008 at 12:32 PM.
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Joined: Apr 2007
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From: Sacramento, CA
I'm not trying to be rude but can you please take your diesel discussion elsewhere? You guys keep getting my hopes up when I see there's new posts in this thread and then when I open the thread expecting to find some sportback news/rumor/opinion I'm disappointed to find people arguing about diesel. Thanks
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 583
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From: Dirty Jersey
I'm not trying to be rude but can you please take your diesel discussion elsewhere? You guys keep getting my hopes up when I see there's new posts in this thread and then when I open the thread expecting to find some sportback news/rumor/opinion I'm disappointed to find people arguing about diesel. Thanks
Anyway, I am not downing diesel engines but some people make it seem like they are vastly superior to gasoline units when in fact they are not. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. In a sports car such as Evo X I would still rather have a turboed gasoline unit, in a work horse such as Montero I would rather have a diesel.
As a side note, did you guys know that the very first electric car was developed in 1940s, it was able to run for 90-100 miles on a single charge? 70 years has passed by and no one has perfected this technology. Isn't it suspicious that large oil companies simply disallowed the smaller/more innovative companies to come up with alternative energy vehicles? If a car manufacturer would come out with some wild engine design that would run on lets say water, oil companies would start to lose huge amounts of money as demand for oil would drop significantly which would cause economic havoc as a lot of companies are tied up to big oil,lot of people would lose their jobs. But reality is that alternative energy technology has been in development for years, just no one has the ***** to stand up against big oil. I know a guy in Pennsylvania and another one in Poland came out with engines running on steam/water.
Also, I am not a big fan of EU as I actually come from one of the countries of EU lol Lots of regulations and unnecessary politicians who come up with new taxes on daily basis. EU is good for people who want to be average, but for anyone that wants to make some real money with a real business I would say stay away from EU lol Funny thing is that when unemployment drops to 8.5% in Germany it's a huge success for them but when unemployment rate in US hits 5% it as if the sky was falling.
I'm hoping it'll have more interior space than the stock X's along with fold down seats on the rear..
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From: dfw
