My HUGE discovery in the Utec... mainly for drag racing
My HUGE discovery in the Utec... mainly for drag racing
Well the Utec has a HUGE downfall in drag racing which I FINALLY figured out to be the reason that my car trapped at 119 but the best I could do is a 12.0
The launch control works pretty well for the launch... I build around 7psi without doing anything strange to the timing. If I use the low load points at the stutter RPM and set the timing to -5 degrees I can hit 20psi plus... with my HUGE turbo so that part works very well. The PROBLEM with this is it is ALWAYS on which means between shifting it will limit your revs to whatever the launch RPM is set at. I thought this would be fine considering I launch at 6k. Whenever I shifted the car seemed ok, kept on some boost between shifts but the car would always kinda jerk a little bit. I thought I was a crappy shifter, slow shifter and every other bad thing possible resulting in my crappy times and stuttery shifts. I solved the dillema by accident today....
I decided I was going to figure out why I can shift so I turned off the launch control and planned to shift normal (Without the whole shift no lift thingy). So I did... the problem was my tiny brain forgot to lift the gas between the shift resulting in the RPMs bouncing up to rev limiter once before it hit the second gear... to my surprise the car LAUNCHED forward when it hit the next gear compared to the old retarded jerky type feeling. The car felt like i launched it from a dead stop except i was moving at 40mph or so.
I then figured I would log it with a more accurate logged (60 fps) and see the difference. I noticed two HUGE things... first thing is this:
At the track I shifted at 7.9k rpms and the second gear seemed to drop to 4.9k RPMs... I never thought twice about it... thought that was the gear difference. I logged it today without the stutter and shifted at 7.2k and it landed in second at 5.2k. This means that when I was shifting at the track I was literally SLOWING the car down between gears. Not only was I slowing it down (As the RPM's prove) but by slowing it down I lost all my boost which meant I had to respool the huge turbo (At low gears didnt seem much by my videos I have been watching of myself) but in third to 4th it seemed to take forever.
The second thing I learned is it dropped on average (Per 60 fps logger) 2.3 seconds or so between EVERY shift AND made it keep boost on instead of dropping it off. The run that I was comparing the logs from was from a 12.2 run at 118.9
Using the math, It would have resulting in an 11.54 ET if I would have shifted it this way! That time would actually make PERFECT sense with the 118.9 mph. If anyone has any way to really talk with the Utec peoples you should REALLY let me talk with them or at least let them know what i have figured out. It pretty much is making the launch control more than worthless for people. If i wouldnt have ever tried to stupid thing I probably would be not so mad but I figured it would be a great thing to help me launch (And it is) but it just KILLED my track times. I plan to run on Friday to see what I can finally do and I just hope i can still launch it old school. I will probably drop the timing to -5 degrees from 1-5k on low load points so when I line up I can still build some boost but I am hoping for an 11.5 or so. Once I hit that I can finally turn the boost up to where it SHOULD be and shoot for the damned 10's.
The launch control works pretty well for the launch... I build around 7psi without doing anything strange to the timing. If I use the low load points at the stutter RPM and set the timing to -5 degrees I can hit 20psi plus... with my HUGE turbo so that part works very well. The PROBLEM with this is it is ALWAYS on which means between shifting it will limit your revs to whatever the launch RPM is set at. I thought this would be fine considering I launch at 6k. Whenever I shifted the car seemed ok, kept on some boost between shifts but the car would always kinda jerk a little bit. I thought I was a crappy shifter, slow shifter and every other bad thing possible resulting in my crappy times and stuttery shifts. I solved the dillema by accident today....
I decided I was going to figure out why I can shift so I turned off the launch control and planned to shift normal (Without the whole shift no lift thingy). So I did... the problem was my tiny brain forgot to lift the gas between the shift resulting in the RPMs bouncing up to rev limiter once before it hit the second gear... to my surprise the car LAUNCHED forward when it hit the next gear compared to the old retarded jerky type feeling. The car felt like i launched it from a dead stop except i was moving at 40mph or so.
I then figured I would log it with a more accurate logged (60 fps) and see the difference. I noticed two HUGE things... first thing is this:
At the track I shifted at 7.9k rpms and the second gear seemed to drop to 4.9k RPMs... I never thought twice about it... thought that was the gear difference. I logged it today without the stutter and shifted at 7.2k and it landed in second at 5.2k. This means that when I was shifting at the track I was literally SLOWING the car down between gears. Not only was I slowing it down (As the RPM's prove) but by slowing it down I lost all my boost which meant I had to respool the huge turbo (At low gears didnt seem much by my videos I have been watching of myself) but in third to 4th it seemed to take forever.
The second thing I learned is it dropped on average (Per 60 fps logger) 2.3 seconds or so between EVERY shift AND made it keep boost on instead of dropping it off. The run that I was comparing the logs from was from a 12.2 run at 118.9
Using the math, It would have resulting in an 11.54 ET if I would have shifted it this way! That time would actually make PERFECT sense with the 118.9 mph. If anyone has any way to really talk with the Utec peoples you should REALLY let me talk with them or at least let them know what i have figured out. It pretty much is making the launch control more than worthless for people. If i wouldnt have ever tried to stupid thing I probably would be not so mad but I figured it would be a great thing to help me launch (And it is) but it just KILLED my track times. I plan to run on Friday to see what I can finally do and I just hope i can still launch it old school. I will probably drop the timing to -5 degrees from 1-5k on low load points so when I line up I can still build some boost but I am hoping for an 11.5 or so. Once I hit that I can finally turn the boost up to where it SHOULD be and shoot for the damned 10's.
Yea, utec definately needs the usage of the stock vehicle speed sensor so it can enable 2-step launch in only low speeds and leave the rest as normal. I always thought you couldn't set the timing negative. Anyway, if it is possible, setting the timing negative is like enabling anti-lag on the evos. Since the timing is negative, the mixture burns outside of the chamber thus increasing heat and exhaust volume through the turbo and it spools on the 2-step.
The two-stage rev limit (launch limiter and flat-shift limit) is something we've been requesting for awhile, an antilag system might be easily enough implemented, but they watch these forums and can see the problems and resolutions we come up with, and they very quickly add the good ideas to their list-o-things.
I had been complaining about that flat shifting thing for awhile, in fact I don't use the launch control for the same reason you were complaining about between shifts... It was an annoyance on my car, I can see how downright obscene it can be on your car. I would like to see some sort of anti-lag feature also, at least something configurable...
I had been complaining about that flat shifting thing for awhile, in fact I don't use the launch control for the same reason you were complaining about between shifts... It was an annoyance on my car, I can see how downright obscene it can be on your car. I would like to see some sort of anti-lag feature also, at least something configurable...
The anti-lag does work ok. The only problem with it is you can only use the fuel cut for the limiter because if you use the ignition cut when it starts stuttering it switches to stock timing. But to do it you use the fuel cut option and set the timing at say 5.75k (Or whever it stutters) from the 10% column to the 30-40% column. This will make it so it will build boost to a pretty high number but still be a low enough load point where after the launch it will be in a higher load point thus making sure the timing is normal and not -5.
You can set the timing to negative and it does work VERY well for spooling the turbo. I would expect on a stock turbo using this ALS you would hit full boost easily within half a second or so. It takes mine about 1 second to hit around 20psi or so. The only downside is it will create enough boost that it will go into the 50% load point and then go to normal timing making it lowerer the boost.
Anyways, the ALS will work but not for normal driving... you would NEED to be under full load otherwise you would hit the lower load points in normal acceleration which results in a VERY strange feeling... you can feel the power drop off HARD but it spools the turbo incredibly fast... very strange but neat.
Anyways... yes. If anyone from the Utec peoples are reading these this is what they need to do to make it worth anything....
First, make it so you can use the lower clutch switch. That would help it out a TON in the between shifting bog problem. I will do some testing and see if I can fake it so it uses the lower switch instead by re-wiring some stuff.
Another thing they need is a speed sensor variable. This would make it so you could have a launch control but turn it off for shifting and make it so you could have a seperate flat foot shifting if wanted. That would at LEAST make it worth it to have the launch control. I am in a dilemma in the fact that I use the launch control to get decent launches but then it screws my shifting so I cant use it making it worthless.
The last thing i think they should do is make it so if you use an ignition cut for the stutter it should not switch to stock ECU timing while stuttering. This would make it so you could dump the fuel in there and spool the turbo insanely fast. This would also make it so people one a protree could actually spool thier turbo fast enough.
And yes, it is obscene on how bad the shifting is. God forbid I use the ignition cut.. it makes the car feel like you break something horrid every shift. If I use the fuel cut the stutter is a little better (Because it fluctuates the RPMs a little more I am assuming) and the shifting is a little better but, as I discovered today, still making it retardedly slow.
Chances are I will be buying the MSD ignition and it has its own launch control. I havent done much research on it yet but I think I will be using that for my launch control for now and just not using the Utecs considering it makes the car shift like crap.
Anyways, this has really made me pissed at the Utec but at the same time has made me very happy now that I know the only problem with my times was the Utec. I went out driving it again tonight and the car shifts like a MONSTER now. It will spin the tires slightly shifting to second gear now and the car just leaps forward compared to the old slow spool crap I am used to.
To sum it up, I can help anyone using the Utec make a good anti lag system but it is honestly worthless. You build tons of boost off the line but cant shift it. I will be testing out new tuning theories and see if I can just kill my real low end but make the turbo spool much faster. My guess is I can get my turbo to spool by 4.2k if I kill the timing before then. I will do some testing and see what I come up with. It is REALLY funny to set the timing to -5 right before the turbo will normally spool and watch the boost just fly up. Anyways, this is all a learning curve for me but it is very interesting. Hopefully TurboXS will read this thread and do something with thier launch control. It is a great feature that helped me launch the car perfectly but I can not use it not (Nor should anyone) because of the whole shift problem.
You can set the timing to negative and it does work VERY well for spooling the turbo. I would expect on a stock turbo using this ALS you would hit full boost easily within half a second or so. It takes mine about 1 second to hit around 20psi or so. The only downside is it will create enough boost that it will go into the 50% load point and then go to normal timing making it lowerer the boost.
Anyways, the ALS will work but not for normal driving... you would NEED to be under full load otherwise you would hit the lower load points in normal acceleration which results in a VERY strange feeling... you can feel the power drop off HARD but it spools the turbo incredibly fast... very strange but neat.
Anyways... yes. If anyone from the Utec peoples are reading these this is what they need to do to make it worth anything....
First, make it so you can use the lower clutch switch. That would help it out a TON in the between shifting bog problem. I will do some testing and see if I can fake it so it uses the lower switch instead by re-wiring some stuff.
Another thing they need is a speed sensor variable. This would make it so you could have a launch control but turn it off for shifting and make it so you could have a seperate flat foot shifting if wanted. That would at LEAST make it worth it to have the launch control. I am in a dilemma in the fact that I use the launch control to get decent launches but then it screws my shifting so I cant use it making it worthless.
The last thing i think they should do is make it so if you use an ignition cut for the stutter it should not switch to stock ECU timing while stuttering. This would make it so you could dump the fuel in there and spool the turbo insanely fast. This would also make it so people one a protree could actually spool thier turbo fast enough.
And yes, it is obscene on how bad the shifting is. God forbid I use the ignition cut.. it makes the car feel like you break something horrid every shift. If I use the fuel cut the stutter is a little better (Because it fluctuates the RPMs a little more I am assuming) and the shifting is a little better but, as I discovered today, still making it retardedly slow.
Chances are I will be buying the MSD ignition and it has its own launch control. I havent done much research on it yet but I think I will be using that for my launch control for now and just not using the Utecs considering it makes the car shift like crap.
Anyways, this has really made me pissed at the Utec but at the same time has made me very happy now that I know the only problem with my times was the Utec. I went out driving it again tonight and the car shifts like a MONSTER now. It will spin the tires slightly shifting to second gear now and the car just leaps forward compared to the old slow spool crap I am used to.
To sum it up, I can help anyone using the Utec make a good anti lag system but it is honestly worthless. You build tons of boost off the line but cant shift it. I will be testing out new tuning theories and see if I can just kill my real low end but make the turbo spool much faster. My guess is I can get my turbo to spool by 4.2k if I kill the timing before then. I will do some testing and see what I come up with. It is REALLY funny to set the timing to -5 right before the turbo will normally spool and watch the boost just fly up. Anyways, this is all a learning curve for me but it is very interesting. Hopefully TurboXS will read this thread and do something with thier launch control. It is a great feature that helped me launch the car perfectly but I can not use it not (Nor should anyone) because of the whole shift problem.
How about just add a switch (as described in the launch control docs) to turn off launch control? Hit the switch once you get underway. I admit things happen fast when you're hurtling down the strip, and it might be too much to concentrate on.
--Dan
Mach V
FastWRX.com
--Dan
Mach V
FastWRX.com
I never read the docs on it but thats what exactly what i was planning on trying next but I looked under there and it is in a pita spot. If I get ambitious I will do it before I go to the track but if not oh well. I was actually thinking of three ideas. One, make it so it uses the bottom switch instead of the top (Try it and see if it helps the flat shifting), otherwise, use a switch to turn it off once i start moving and option three is actually a button/switch I actually would need to hold to enable the launch control. I was thinking the last one might prove to be the easiest to use at the track... just hold a button down while stuttering and let it go when your off.
Anyways, Ill let you guys know what I try out and what seems to work and what doesnt. I work alot and work strange hours so I dont get too much time to screw around with the car really but hopefully I can get to it before Friday when I run the car again. If not I am more concerned with getting a decent time than I am working out the small bugs with the Utec. Everything has thier priority and i would rather concentrate on hitting an 11.5 than making the launch control work flawlessly... at least right away. I just want to hit that so I can let myself turn the boost up and shoot for the 10's
Anyways, Ill let you guys know what I try out and what seems to work and what doesnt. I work alot and work strange hours so I dont get too much time to screw around with the car really but hopefully I can get to it before Friday when I run the car again. If not I am more concerned with getting a decent time than I am working out the small bugs with the Utec. Everything has thier priority and i would rather concentrate on hitting an 11.5 than making the launch control work flawlessly... at least right away. I just want to hit that so I can let myself turn the boost up and shoot for the 10's
Originally Posted by Mach V Dan
How about just add a switch (as described in the launch control docs) to turn off launch control? Hit the switch once you get underway. I admit things happen fast when you're hurtling down the strip, and it might be too much to concentrate on.
--Dan
Mach V
FastWRX.com
--Dan
Mach V
FastWRX.com
The big problem is the circuit for the switch was an OR circuit, so the clutch switch on the clutch pedal would have to be disconnected and I chose not to do that and subsequently removed the shifter knob knowing I'd never use it for anything else. HOWEVER, my complaint was disabling the flat-shift, and not the launch feature..
But Fear not.. This complaint about the flat shift and launch control RPM being one-in-the-same and not two seperate features will likely be addressed because it definitely is one of those issues that has come up quite a few times in the past year.
I would like to see if they can leverage your idea for an ALS feature that can be enabled to use in addition to the launch features.
THis is a perfect example of a feature on the MSD-DIS2 that would normally not get used, but fits perfectly to your situation. so I say go for it. if I could figure out how to wire a two-step soft-touch rev limiter between the HKS DLI-2 and the ECU without too much aggrivation, I would do exactly the same.
Fortunately for me, the low mass of the stock turbo means my tune and fairly fast shifting has mean I don't get anywhere near the poor transient boost response between shifts that you have to deal with. One of the reasons I chose to stick with the stock-ish turbo was for that reason. Considering my driving style and that I don't particularly like drag racing other than for test and tune sessions the stock turbo has been fine for me.
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And don't give up on the UTEC for a reason like this, since its something that can be worked around and likely something that the TurboXS guys could address if there was enough demand for it. I'd really like to see a few more cars in the 11's and 10's running a UTEC (as far as I know, there aren't any of us in the 10's on a EVO UTEC at the moment, but I don't know of everyone in existence.. LOL)
Ill get there. Give me 2-3 weeks.
Now that I learned the problem with the car I am sure my next run will be an 11.49 or real close to it at the same lame boost levels. Once I hit that I know I will be ready for the 30psi runs. That should be able to net me a 10.99
Im telling you guys also... the whole ALS thing is really easy to work. I just actually thought of how I plan to make it perfect:
First, make a switch or button that i need to hold to enable the ALS (Would require the removal of the top clutch switch... which doesnt seem to have a purpose anyways.. the starter disable uses the bottom one so I have no idea on the top ones purpose in life). This would get rid of the shifting problem completely until the devise a better flat-shift idea.
Second, use the map based mapping on the Utec (I just got the map sensor today so I am ASSUMING this will work fine). Find the RPM that I will to stutter at (Assume 6k). I will then take the Utec and make the timing 0 or -5 at that RPM from 0psi to between 15-20psi (Or any number lower than I plan to run the car at... so if I run it at 25psi make it ALS to 15psi).
Using these two methods, I will have a launch control that i need to hold a button down to activate (Either on the steering wheel or shift knob) and it will anti-lag up to my set boost amount but will not hit that load point when Im actually racing. The only thing that I will not be able to do is use the extra fuel dump to make it actually backfire hard because I am forced to use the fuel cut stutter instead of the ignition cut. This will still easily make it spool though just maybe not exactly at the desired boost but still get close enough.
Anyways, trust me about the ALS... try it out for yourself it is really neat. It will work much better once I switch my maps to the MAP based load points so I can build the desired boost instead of trying to figure it out based on Hertz readings. It wont be too perfect just for the fact that it is fuel cut so the RPMs jump alot but still will be fine as long as you look at what RPMs it jumps to and just edit those points for say 15psi.
Now that I learned the problem with the car I am sure my next run will be an 11.49 or real close to it at the same lame boost levels. Once I hit that I know I will be ready for the 30psi runs. That should be able to net me a 10.99
Im telling you guys also... the whole ALS thing is really easy to work. I just actually thought of how I plan to make it perfect:
First, make a switch or button that i need to hold to enable the ALS (Would require the removal of the top clutch switch... which doesnt seem to have a purpose anyways.. the starter disable uses the bottom one so I have no idea on the top ones purpose in life). This would get rid of the shifting problem completely until the devise a better flat-shift idea.
Second, use the map based mapping on the Utec (I just got the map sensor today so I am ASSUMING this will work fine). Find the RPM that I will to stutter at (Assume 6k). I will then take the Utec and make the timing 0 or -5 at that RPM from 0psi to between 15-20psi (Or any number lower than I plan to run the car at... so if I run it at 25psi make it ALS to 15psi).
Using these two methods, I will have a launch control that i need to hold a button down to activate (Either on the steering wheel or shift knob) and it will anti-lag up to my set boost amount but will not hit that load point when Im actually racing. The only thing that I will not be able to do is use the extra fuel dump to make it actually backfire hard because I am forced to use the fuel cut stutter instead of the ignition cut. This will still easily make it spool though just maybe not exactly at the desired boost but still get close enough.
Anyways, trust me about the ALS... try it out for yourself it is really neat. It will work much better once I switch my maps to the MAP based load points so I can build the desired boost instead of trying to figure it out based on Hertz readings. It wont be too perfect just for the fact that it is fuel cut so the RPMs jump alot but still will be fine as long as you look at what RPMs it jumps to and just edit those points for say 15psi.
Oh and about giving up on the Utec I wont
I was actually pretty happy with the power it has for the price. It allows full timing and fuel control. There are alot of small bugs and quarks that i wish i could fix for them (Dead Time compensation, ignition cut based launch with timing control, the launch control features) but really other than those it is a perfect unit. Almost all of those can also be routed around so its really not that big a deal... I just wish I knew all that before i made 3 trips to the track trying to figure out why I cant drive
I was actually pretty happy with the power it has for the price. It allows full timing and fuel control. There are alot of small bugs and quarks that i wish i could fix for them (Dead Time compensation, ignition cut based launch with timing control, the launch control features) but really other than those it is a perfect unit. Almost all of those can also be routed around so its really not that big a deal... I just wish I knew all that before i made 3 trips to the track trying to figure out why I cant drive
OK. Just thinking out loud here. There are three RPM based outlets for shift lights. These outputs are based on a negative ground. What if you were use a switch that was activated by the shift light output at whatever RPM you set it at? The circuit remains active at any RPM above what you want to launch at. You just need to make sure that the switch does not pull down more than 5Ma. I think that this is what the shift light circuit is rated for. Just a thought.
I thought about that but it seemed to complicated for me just to run it at the track a few times. I will just put in a simple switch of some sort if I get to it tomorrow morning before I run it again. Chances are the next time I will run the car it will have an MSD in it so i can use the MSD for my launch control and not worry about the shifting problem. But yes... i was thinking of that was well if I dont use the MSD later on. Use the shiftlite output so it actually acts as a switch... run it inline with the clutch switch (Depending on the voltages I may need a resistor or something but you get the idea).
I posted some logs for your viewing enjoyment on this thread:
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=148285
You will need the Zietronix software to view them though but you can download it free at www.zeitronix.com
The things i found interesting were one, the time between shifts is so much different. And two, now that i have my damned boost sensor, the time it takes for respool from shifting normally to shifting by flat shifting off the primary rev limiter. Its an amazing difference.
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=148285
You will need the Zietronix software to view them though but you can download it free at www.zeitronix.com
The things i found interesting were one, the time between shifts is so much different. And two, now that i have my damned boost sensor, the time it takes for respool from shifting normally to shifting by flat shifting off the primary rev limiter. Its an amazing difference.
Originally Posted by TrinaBabe
I thought about that but it seemed to complicated for me just to run it at the track a few times. I will just put in a simple switch of some sort if I get to it tomorrow morning before I run it again. Chances are the next time I will run the car it will have an MSD in it so i can use the MSD for my launch control and not worry about the shifting problem. But yes... i was thinking of that was well if I dont use the MSD later on. Use the shiftlite output so it actually acts as a switch... run it inline with the clutch switch (Depending on the voltages I may need a resistor or something but you get the idea).
I would try this experiment myself if I did not believe that the next firmware from Turbo XS would add a two step. I think that the UTEC will be the most desired engine management system period after the new updates. I got a few hints of what they are but no real idea of when. All I can say is that the upgrades are actively being working on at Turbo XS.