Why Methanol can blow you up without a failsafe?
Why Methanol can blow you up without a failsafe?
This is for the newbies I guess, I never could understand HOW it can happen, and FAST, until I just figured it out.( I guess my brain processes slowly
) I haven't got the Meth. tuned yet, even though I have had it on my car for a while now, long story, most of you know about it anyway.......Has to do with frequent calls to a "rollback" company
. Anyway, here is my "guess" on why things go bad fast without a failsafe on a Methanol injection system.
When you tune the car, you are dumping in more fuel, the faster you go, and the higher the boost goes. If you are shooting Meth, you TAKE out some of the fuel from the injectors, and ADD methanol to the equation: Squirt IN meth, for the fuel you take out.
If you are at WOT, and the Meth QUITS, you just have the "trickle" of the fuel from the injectors going into the chamber, and will make the car SUPER LEAN NOW!! And cause the KABOOM! I know there has to be ONE person who didn't know this, or I wasted my time!! I also wasted my time if what my "guess" is, is wrong. Any input?
I don't have a failsafe on my Meth kit, except the "LOW" light. doubt that would save me if a Meth hose pops off at WOT, or if I would happen to get the injector clogged up. WHAT failsafes are there? Can a failsafe be wired into a kit that doesn't have a failsafe? Or do you have to get a kit with one in there? Just a few question I know you guys can answer for me/us.
Is the "risk" worth the gains? or is it better to just stick with the old trusty Race-gas? Thanks for your time!
) I haven't got the Meth. tuned yet, even though I have had it on my car for a while now, long story, most of you know about it anyway.......Has to do with frequent calls to a "rollback" company . Anyway, here is my "guess" on why things go bad fast without a failsafe on a Methanol injection system.When you tune the car, you are dumping in more fuel, the faster you go, and the higher the boost goes. If you are shooting Meth, you TAKE out some of the fuel from the injectors, and ADD methanol to the equation: Squirt IN meth, for the fuel you take out.
If you are at WOT, and the Meth QUITS, you just have the "trickle" of the fuel from the injectors going into the chamber, and will make the car SUPER LEAN NOW!! And cause the KABOOM! I know there has to be ONE person who didn't know this, or I wasted my time!! I also wasted my time if what my "guess" is, is wrong.
Any input?I don't have a failsafe on my Meth kit, except the "LOW" light. doubt that would save me if a Meth hose pops off at WOT, or if I would happen to get the injector clogged up. WHAT failsafes are there? Can a failsafe be wired into a kit that doesn't have a failsafe? Or do you have to get a kit with one in there? Just a few question I know you guys can answer for me/us.
Is the "risk" worth the gains? or is it better to just stick with the old trusty Race-gas? Thanks for your time!
My kit has no failsafe and it is a little discocerting. To help me sleep at night my kit does not spraying until like 20lb's of boost. In my normal daily driving I am not doing too many pulls to the 26lb mark where my kit is spraying at full pressure. So for all intents and purposes unless I am doing a hard pull the meth is basically off. When I know I am going to be driving hard I take the extra moment to test the system for flow. I also inspect all of my meth lines regularly. Until I step up to a kit with a real failsafe this is about as safe as it will get for me.
My kit has no failsafe and it is a little discocerting. To help me sleep at night my kit does not spraying until like 20lb's of boost. In my normal daily driving I am not doing too many pulls to the 26lb mark where my kit is spraying at full pressure. So for all intents and purposes unless I am doing a hard pull the meth is basically off. When I know I am going to be driving hard I take the extra moment to test the system for flow. I also inspect all of my meth lines regularly. Until I step up to a kit with a real failsafe this is about as safe as it will get for me.
I run about 28lb's on 93 with alcohol. I have also heard meth causing the inside of the tank to corrode as well as the pump seals...I am yet to see this first hand. I am running denatured alcohol though, not meth. I don't know if that makes any difference. And yes I am tuned and monitor AFR;s with a wideband.
I run about 28lb's on 93 with alcohol. I have also heard meth causing the inside of the tank to corrode as well as the pump seals...I am yet to see this first hand. I am running denatured alcohol though, not meth. I don't know if that makes any difference. And yes I am tuned and monitor AFR;s with a wideband.
Do some searching in the water/alky injection forum.
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/fo...play.php?f=173
It looks like the best failsafes are the DSS3 and the Zietronix if you believe what you read.
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/fo...play.php?f=173
It looks like the best failsafes are the DSS3 and the Zietronix if you believe what you read.
Do some searching in the water/alky injection forum.
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/fo...play.php?f=173
It looks like the best failsafes are the DSS3 and the Zietronix if you believe what you read.
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/fo...play.php?f=173
It looks like the best failsafes are the DSS3 and the Zietronix if you believe what you read.
Thanks for the link dubbleugly! Time to do some reading!
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Great point!! I didn't know if I would have enough time, if that happened at WOT, and the A/F started to get lean! Thanks for the input though!
zT2 failsafe ...is the way to go
as far as monitoring the wideband at WOT...that requires you constantly looking at the gauge while driving...how can you drive and always have an eye on your wideband...i don't look at my gauges unless i feel like it... failsafes are audible and visual...you have no choice but to sense one...
I like the high boost idea...but after a certain point your tune is still set up lean at WOT...unless you have a conservative tune ...which really defeats the purpose of meth... i say get a failsafe or tune very conservative like my car is ...i can run on the same tune with or without meth...for now...i don't have a failsafe.
Meth yields great results...tune aggressive with a failsafe...power is nice
I'm sure the meth will eat away at plastic lining...i use my stock intercooler reservoir...haven't noticed anything...i inspected recently
as far as monitoring the wideband at WOT...that requires you constantly looking at the gauge while driving...how can you drive and always have an eye on your wideband...i don't look at my gauges unless i feel like it... failsafes are audible and visual...you have no choice but to sense one...
I like the high boost idea...but after a certain point your tune is still set up lean at WOT...unless you have a conservative tune ...which really defeats the purpose of meth... i say get a failsafe or tune very conservative like my car is ...i can run on the same tune with or without meth...for now...i don't have a failsafe.
Meth yields great results...tune aggressive with a failsafe...power is nice
I'm sure the meth will eat away at plastic lining...i use my stock intercooler reservoir...haven't noticed anything...i inspected recently
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A few points, for what they are worth:
Regarding 'why':
To understand why things go boom, I think it is helpful to recall what meth injection is doing in the first place. As most of you undoubtedly already know, it really comes down to heat and detonation. Run lots of boost, you get extra heat, build up heat and the hydrocarbons in gasoline break down into auto-igniters and you get detonation.
Fundementally, I think of meth injection as a variation on water injection. We're looking to effectively increase resistance to detonation and have a cooler flame front. But, of course, meth has some potential advantages. For one thing, it has BTUs it can contribute. Also, not only is the flame front cooler, but potentially slower and more stable as well. One advantage I overlooked for a long time (until I was looking closely at someone's setup) is that, depending on where injection occurs, the vaporization can also provide a pretty significant level of intercooling.
Now, as SmokedMustang points out, the problem really starts when we put these advantages to work in the tune. He mentions a big one, we can run leaner - but it really isn't a matter of replacing gasonline with methanol, the lion's share of the energy is still coming from the gasoline, it is that we leaning closer to theoretical 'Best Power' than we could without the lower temps and extra resistance to detonation.
But there are other ways we can push performance. For example, we can push boost. We can also take advantage of the slower flame front with timing and so on. I'm bringing this up because if the tune is aggressive enough, the loss of the meth can leave the engine in a situation where there is too much heat and pressure for gasonline alone - regardless of how rich we take the mixture.
It is easy to think of the extra fuel we pour in for cooling as a 'coolant', but that can be missleading. 'Charge cooling', or cooling by evaporization does
occur, but if you look at the latent heats and quantities of fuel involved, it is miniscule, generally just a few degrees C. Most of the cooling with a richer mixture comes from changes to the flame front itself - and there is a very distinct curve to this effect.
I guess what I am taking a long time to say is that 'newbies' (to use SmokedMustang's phrase) is that what the first post meant by 'super lean' isn't necessarily an engine gasping for fuel. It is quite often an engine suddenly running just rich of stoich (pretty much the worst possible place to run an engine in terms of CHTs and probability of detonation) and .85 lambda (AFR of about 12.5:1 with gasoline) - .85-.86 lambda is a great place to generate loads of power, but is waaay too much heat and pressure at WOT for most engines, particular non-normally aspirated ones. In other words, setting the stage for extreme temps up top and detonation, all while the engine is still producing lots of power.
Regarding 'Detection':
Wideband controllers are a very good way to detect a sudden change in meth flow. The reason is that most are inherently lambda meters. To put it simply, the sensor 'finds' stoich and the controller measures the amount of offset. The stoichiometric ratio for methanol and gasoline are dramatically different. Gasoline is nominally 14.7:1, methanol is typically somewhere between 6/7:1. So if that methanol disappears and there is suddenly more O2 in the mix, a wideband controller can potentially detect the change very quickly.
Regarding 'Corrosion':
Methanol is definately corrosive to aluminum and can soften some rubbers and polymers, but perhaps a bigger problem is its affinity for water. It is truly a water magnet and, left in a standing pool, will gladly such enough water from the air around it to turn into a gelatonous goo.
Regarding 'Alarms':
True story, the first time I saw an XD-1 gauge start flashing in alarm mode, I thought it was the most annoying thing I had ever seen. And I was surprised to learn that the user was hooking up an audible alarm as well. When I mentioned this to Klaus and told him it seemed like overkill, he simply asked me "Ever hear of a perfectly working airplane landing gear up?" (we both have a background in aviation).
Suddenly the point was crystal clear. Most small airplanes with retractable gear have indicator lights and warning horns (typically linked to flaps or throttle). Yet a fair number of pilots get so busy and distracted that even though the lights are wrong and a horn is beeping, they don't realize that the gear is up until they hear metal on pavement instead of the squeek of tires.
My moral being - if you install an alarm capable gauge, or even a 'failsafe system', good for you. Just don't install it and forget about it. If you are pushing the edge and using something like meth injection to help you do it, try to train yourself to scan the relevant instruments as part of your driving (pilots use checklists and repetitive accronyms like "GUMPS" to help insure proper gear settings for landing). That way, alarms and etc. become a 'backup' to the primary 'failsafe' system.
-jjf
Regarding 'why':
To understand why things go boom, I think it is helpful to recall what meth injection is doing in the first place. As most of you undoubtedly already know, it really comes down to heat and detonation. Run lots of boost, you get extra heat, build up heat and the hydrocarbons in gasoline break down into auto-igniters and you get detonation.
Fundementally, I think of meth injection as a variation on water injection. We're looking to effectively increase resistance to detonation and have a cooler flame front. But, of course, meth has some potential advantages. For one thing, it has BTUs it can contribute. Also, not only is the flame front cooler, but potentially slower and more stable as well. One advantage I overlooked for a long time (until I was looking closely at someone's setup) is that, depending on where injection occurs, the vaporization can also provide a pretty significant level of intercooling.
Now, as SmokedMustang points out, the problem really starts when we put these advantages to work in the tune. He mentions a big one, we can run leaner - but it really isn't a matter of replacing gasonline with methanol, the lion's share of the energy is still coming from the gasoline, it is that we leaning closer to theoretical 'Best Power' than we could without the lower temps and extra resistance to detonation.
But there are other ways we can push performance. For example, we can push boost. We can also take advantage of the slower flame front with timing and so on. I'm bringing this up because if the tune is aggressive enough, the loss of the meth can leave the engine in a situation where there is too much heat and pressure for gasonline alone - regardless of how rich we take the mixture.
It is easy to think of the extra fuel we pour in for cooling as a 'coolant', but that can be missleading. 'Charge cooling', or cooling by evaporization does
occur, but if you look at the latent heats and quantities of fuel involved, it is miniscule, generally just a few degrees C. Most of the cooling with a richer mixture comes from changes to the flame front itself - and there is a very distinct curve to this effect.
I guess what I am taking a long time to say is that 'newbies' (to use SmokedMustang's phrase) is that what the first post meant by 'super lean' isn't necessarily an engine gasping for fuel. It is quite often an engine suddenly running just rich of stoich (pretty much the worst possible place to run an engine in terms of CHTs and probability of detonation) and .85 lambda (AFR of about 12.5:1 with gasoline) - .85-.86 lambda is a great place to generate loads of power, but is waaay too much heat and pressure at WOT for most engines, particular non-normally aspirated ones. In other words, setting the stage for extreme temps up top and detonation, all while the engine is still producing lots of power.
Regarding 'Detection':
Wideband controllers are a very good way to detect a sudden change in meth flow. The reason is that most are inherently lambda meters. To put it simply, the sensor 'finds' stoich and the controller measures the amount of offset. The stoichiometric ratio for methanol and gasoline are dramatically different. Gasoline is nominally 14.7:1, methanol is typically somewhere between 6/7:1. So if that methanol disappears and there is suddenly more O2 in the mix, a wideband controller can potentially detect the change very quickly.
Regarding 'Corrosion':
Methanol is definately corrosive to aluminum and can soften some rubbers and polymers, but perhaps a bigger problem is its affinity for water. It is truly a water magnet and, left in a standing pool, will gladly such enough water from the air around it to turn into a gelatonous goo.
Regarding 'Alarms':
True story, the first time I saw an XD-1 gauge start flashing in alarm mode, I thought it was the most annoying thing I had ever seen. And I was surprised to learn that the user was hooking up an audible alarm as well. When I mentioned this to Klaus and told him it seemed like overkill, he simply asked me "Ever hear of a perfectly working airplane landing gear up?" (we both have a background in aviation).
Suddenly the point was crystal clear. Most small airplanes with retractable gear have indicator lights and warning horns (typically linked to flaps or throttle). Yet a fair number of pilots get so busy and distracted that even though the lights are wrong and a horn is beeping, they don't realize that the gear is up until they hear metal on pavement instead of the squeek of tires.
My moral being - if you install an alarm capable gauge, or even a 'failsafe system', good for you. Just don't install it and forget about it. If you are pushing the edge and using something like meth injection to help you do it, try to train yourself to scan the relevant instruments as part of your driving (pilots use checklists and repetitive accronyms like "GUMPS" to help insure proper gear settings for landing). That way, alarms and etc. become a 'backup' to the primary 'failsafe' system.
-jjf
A few points, for what they are worth:
Regarding 'why':
To understand why things go boom, I think it is helpful to recall what meth injection is doing in the first place. As most of you undoubtedly already know, it really comes down to heat and detonation. Run lots of boost, you get extra heat, build up heat and the hydrocarbons in gasoline break down into auto-igniters and you get detonation.
Fundementally, I think of meth injection as a variation on water injection. We're looking to effectively increase resistance to detonation and have a cooler flame front. But, of course, meth has some potential advantages. For one thing, it has BTUs it can contribute. Also, not only is the flame front cooler, but potentially slower and more stable as well. One advantage I overlooked for a long time (until I was looking closely at someone's setup) is that, depending on where injection occurs, the vaporization can also provide a pretty significant level of intercooling.
Now, as SmokedMustang points out, the problem really starts when we put these advantages to work in the tune. He mentions a big one, we can run leaner - but it really isn't a matter of replacing gasonline with methanol, the lion's share of the energy is still coming from the gasoline, it is that we leaning closer to theoretical 'Best Power' than we could without the lower temps and extra resistance to detonation.
But there are other ways we can push performance. For example, we can push boost. We can also take advantage of the slower flame front with timing and so on. I'm bringing this up because if the tune is aggressive enough, the loss of the meth can leave the engine in a situation where there is too much heat and pressure for gasonline alone - regardless of how rich we take the mixture.
It is easy to think of the extra fuel we pour in for cooling as a 'coolant', but that can be missleading. 'Charge cooling', or cooling by evaporization does
occur, but if you look at the latent heats and quantities of fuel involved, it is miniscule, generally just a few degrees C. Most of the cooling with a richer mixture comes from changes to the flame front itself - and there is a very distinct curve to this effect.
I guess what I am taking a long time to say is that 'newbies' (to use SmokedMustang's phrase) is that what the first post meant by 'super lean' isn't necessarily an engine gasping for fuel. It is quite often an engine suddenly running just rich of stoich (pretty much the worst possible place to run an engine in terms of CHTs and probability of detonation) and .85 lambda (AFR of about 12.5:1 with gasoline) - .85-.86 lambda is a great place to generate loads of power, but is waaay too much heat and pressure at WOT for most engines, particular non-normally aspirated ones. In other words, setting the stage for extreme temps up top and detonation, all while the engine is still producing lots of power.
Regarding 'Detection':
Wideband controllers are a very good way to detect a sudden change in meth flow. The reason is that most are inherently lambda meters. To put it simply, the sensor 'finds' stoich and the controller measures the amount of offset. The stoichiometric ratio for methanol and gasoline are dramatically different. Gasoline is nominally 14.7:1, methanol is typically somewhere between 6/7:1. So if that methanol disappears and there is suddenly more O2 in the mix, a wideband controller can potentially detect the change very quickly.
Regarding 'Corrosion':
Methanol is definately corrosive to aluminum and can soften some rubbers and polymers, but perhaps a bigger problem is its affinity for water. It is truly a water magnet and, left in a standing pool, will gladly such enough water from the air around it to turn into a gelatonous goo.
Regarding 'Alarms':
True story, the first time I saw an XD-1 gauge start flashing in alarm mode, I thought it was the most annoying thing I had ever seen. And I was surprised to learn that the user was hooking up an audible alarm as well. When I mentioned this to Klaus and told him it seemed like overkill, he simply asked me "Ever hear of a perfectly working airplane landing gear up?" (we both have a background in aviation).
Suddenly the point was crystal clear. Most small airplanes with retractable gear have indicator lights and warning horns (typically linked to flaps or throttle). Yet a fair number of pilots get so busy and distracted that even though the lights are wrong and a horn is beeping, they don't realize that the gear is up until they hear metal on pavement instead of the squeek of tires.
My moral being - if you install an alarm capable gauge, or even a 'failsafe system', good for you. Just don't install it and forget about it. If you are pushing the edge and using something like meth injection to help you do it, try to train yourself to scan the relevant instruments as part of your driving (pilots use checklists and repetitive accronyms like "GUMPS" to help insure proper gear settings for landing). That way, alarms and etc. become a 'backup' to the primary 'failsafe' system.
-jjf
Regarding 'why':
To understand why things go boom, I think it is helpful to recall what meth injection is doing in the first place. As most of you undoubtedly already know, it really comes down to heat and detonation. Run lots of boost, you get extra heat, build up heat and the hydrocarbons in gasoline break down into auto-igniters and you get detonation.
Fundementally, I think of meth injection as a variation on water injection. We're looking to effectively increase resistance to detonation and have a cooler flame front. But, of course, meth has some potential advantages. For one thing, it has BTUs it can contribute. Also, not only is the flame front cooler, but potentially slower and more stable as well. One advantage I overlooked for a long time (until I was looking closely at someone's setup) is that, depending on where injection occurs, the vaporization can also provide a pretty significant level of intercooling.
Now, as SmokedMustang points out, the problem really starts when we put these advantages to work in the tune. He mentions a big one, we can run leaner - but it really isn't a matter of replacing gasonline with methanol, the lion's share of the energy is still coming from the gasoline, it is that we leaning closer to theoretical 'Best Power' than we could without the lower temps and extra resistance to detonation.
But there are other ways we can push performance. For example, we can push boost. We can also take advantage of the slower flame front with timing and so on. I'm bringing this up because if the tune is aggressive enough, the loss of the meth can leave the engine in a situation where there is too much heat and pressure for gasonline alone - regardless of how rich we take the mixture.
It is easy to think of the extra fuel we pour in for cooling as a 'coolant', but that can be missleading. 'Charge cooling', or cooling by evaporization does
occur, but if you look at the latent heats and quantities of fuel involved, it is miniscule, generally just a few degrees C. Most of the cooling with a richer mixture comes from changes to the flame front itself - and there is a very distinct curve to this effect.
I guess what I am taking a long time to say is that 'newbies' (to use SmokedMustang's phrase) is that what the first post meant by 'super lean' isn't necessarily an engine gasping for fuel. It is quite often an engine suddenly running just rich of stoich (pretty much the worst possible place to run an engine in terms of CHTs and probability of detonation) and .85 lambda (AFR of about 12.5:1 with gasoline) - .85-.86 lambda is a great place to generate loads of power, but is waaay too much heat and pressure at WOT for most engines, particular non-normally aspirated ones. In other words, setting the stage for extreme temps up top and detonation, all while the engine is still producing lots of power.
Regarding 'Detection':
Wideband controllers are a very good way to detect a sudden change in meth flow. The reason is that most are inherently lambda meters. To put it simply, the sensor 'finds' stoich and the controller measures the amount of offset. The stoichiometric ratio for methanol and gasoline are dramatically different. Gasoline is nominally 14.7:1, methanol is typically somewhere between 6/7:1. So if that methanol disappears and there is suddenly more O2 in the mix, a wideband controller can potentially detect the change very quickly.
Regarding 'Corrosion':
Methanol is definately corrosive to aluminum and can soften some rubbers and polymers, but perhaps a bigger problem is its affinity for water. It is truly a water magnet and, left in a standing pool, will gladly such enough water from the air around it to turn into a gelatonous goo.
Regarding 'Alarms':
True story, the first time I saw an XD-1 gauge start flashing in alarm mode, I thought it was the most annoying thing I had ever seen. And I was surprised to learn that the user was hooking up an audible alarm as well. When I mentioned this to Klaus and told him it seemed like overkill, he simply asked me "Ever hear of a perfectly working airplane landing gear up?" (we both have a background in aviation).
Suddenly the point was crystal clear. Most small airplanes with retractable gear have indicator lights and warning horns (typically linked to flaps or throttle). Yet a fair number of pilots get so busy and distracted that even though the lights are wrong and a horn is beeping, they don't realize that the gear is up until they hear metal on pavement instead of the squeek of tires.
My moral being - if you install an alarm capable gauge, or even a 'failsafe system', good for you. Just don't install it and forget about it. If you are pushing the edge and using something like meth injection to help you do it, try to train yourself to scan the relevant instruments as part of your driving (pilots use checklists and repetitive accronyms like "GUMPS" to help insure proper gear settings for landing). That way, alarms and etc. become a 'backup' to the primary 'failsafe' system.
-jjf
very good info