If you ask me the FJO(digital also) > All widebands because it uses ntk sensor and ntk sensors are known for having a much greater life span than the Bosch, but of course it is a costly sensor. Klaus says that the ntk can be incorporated with the LM1, but wont release firmware so it can be used ;(

 

No I am not cool with that...Saying that the dynojet wideband is as accurate as the Innovate is flat out wrong. Saying that the Innovate wideband is no better than the other widebands including the analog ZT2 that you sell is not correct either.

There is a reason why Innovate controls 40% of the wideband market. It is not by accident. There is a reason why Innovate products are used in NASCAR and NHRA.

There is a reason why a reputable Nissan tuning shop like JWT stopped using their expensive Horriba wideband and started using the Innovate.

There is a reason why Clark Stepller who knows how to tune Nissans immediately accepted my AFR on track logs from my nissan race car as accurate when I told him that I logged the info with Innovate products. And he tuned my race car based on these very logs.

This flash that he made for my race car allowed me to dominate the first ITA race of the season with SCCA @ Cal Speedway.

Stuff like that does not happen by accident.

You are a vendor and just like any other vendor (dynoflash and BR comne to mind), you seek to bash other products to sell yours.

 

That is your right not to agree, but in this forum people can disagree respectfully. YOU WIN.

ROAD/RACE

 

i think you mentioned having a cat converter in the car, granted its out of its range at around 11-12/1 AFR, but you will see some of the fuel convert if the temps are high enough

another problem as previously mentioned is that the tuning was done on an inertia/non-load based dyno & the load & time your able to hold that amount of load will vary on the street

 

dude simmer down. You are no different as you promote innovate products because you use them.

 

No, I am different. I get ZERO income for any sale of Innovate products. Road Race makes money when a he sells ZT2 products.

I am just sick and tired of vendors bashing quality products and spreading dis-information to sell theirs.

This thread is about MY expreience with dynojet wideband. I have acknowledged the limitations of the data since both data sets were not collected @ the same time and place.

I still believe that the reason the car was knocking was that the tuner was getting erroneous data from the crappy dynojet wideband. I have been warned by two engineers about this and I did not believe them. Now I do believe them.

This thread is not for vendors to come in here and say that one wideband is not better than the other.

 

Damn NJ, your a cool cat and all, but you love to dick ride Innovate. You should get more of a life then just one WB company.

 

+1

 

this thread is a joke. dynojet wideband are not made by innovate. wideband on the dynojet read a little lean but at least it's safe and also they are way the **** better than cheapy radioshack parts put together like innovate stuff. Zeitronix wideband FTW.

 

you left out the most important stuff. Log for knock. AFR and knock/timing are the two most important when tuning. You can have a perfect AFR but that doesn't mean you have a good timing advance.

 

To me, Innovate products have proven their effectiveness. I use what is effective. Find me a company that has made as many plug-ins for free for the DYI tuner as Innovate has done.

Who was first to make make Ecuflash Plug-ins so we can log all our data on one chart?

Who went out of their way to create Xede plug-ins so people like me can figure out what the hell their timing was on their xede equipped cars?

Who has created plug-ins for Megasquirt users?

What did ZT2 do for those who use Ecuflash? Did they bother create plug-ins for their software so users like you can integrate Tactrix cable data into one chart?

ZT2 left you high and dry. It was left to the selfless Malibu Jack to integrate ZT2 into his logger. That tells you right there how much ZT2 cares about their customers.

 

I log for knock, timing, AFR, Airflow, IDC, Injector Pulse Width, Coolant, boost. If it is in the ECU, then I have logged it. There are so many lines on my logworks charts that I get confused looking at them

 

honestly bro. i'm not a big fan of innovate stuff. either way it doesn't matter what you use to tune your own car, long as you're comfortable with it and know what you're doing,. that's all it matters.

 

Actually, that is not quite accurate. Early LM-1s did work with NTK sensors. The unit determined sensor type by looking at the cal resistor line. Alternate sensor support is still used in some OEM applications.

NTK support dropped in priority for our commercial widebands for several reasons. First, code space on the original LM-1s is limited, so as features continued to be added, it became impossible to keep one, auto switching, firmware version. Second, as more and more data was collected it became clear that, although significantly more expensive, there was little to suggest that NTK sensors offered any significant advantages in terms of accuracy, lead resistance, and etc. Klaus still gets skeptical looks when he presents this data, but he is obviously not the only one who has reached this conclussion. There is a certain wideband controller, that one would think almost *certainly* must include NTK sensors, but if you look closely, it is Bosch sensors with the numbering, etc. scratched off.

Last, Klaus discovered that one of the principle causes of premature sensor failure and excessive drift is exceeding max bung temp. This temp is significantly lower than max gas temp for both Bosch and NTK sensors. He was then able to use a quirk of the particular Bosch sensor we predominantly now use to monitor this parameter.

I sometimes read assertions that the Innovate measurement principle is a Bosch specific thing. And that it is the result of some tight connection between Klaus and Bosch. Klaus does seem to know lots of engineers there and we do seem to sell them quite a few widebands, but the myth is false. The measurement principle came from Klaus' quest for much faster measurements and has been demonstrated on quite a few different UEGO sensors. We use the Bosch sensors because, many tens of thousands and counting, we see excellent accuracy with every batch when tested with calibrated gasses in our lab and Klaus really likes that we can monitor a significant cause of sensor failure and bogus readings.

-jjf

 

Actually, no. I think that the original post appears to have some merit. Detonation remains the most probable cause and the tuner was miss led. But I'm also influenced by having seen a lot of lab testing.

I do find it interesting that a Zeitronix affiliation seems to have a strong relationship to miss reading my posts, but my statistical sample remains small. Far be it for me to propose a hypothesis on such scant evidence -- Besides, all the funny ones would just get me moderated...

I'm sorry, I don't find that entirely credible. Much as I've seen us derided in these forums for lacking features we actually have had for years, I am skeptical that your blanket statement about our widebands stems solely from your desire to share extensive personal experience with them.

My complaint is not sales pitches - especially when folks have paid for that right. I just get frustrated because every time our products get attacked by a vendor, my abilitiy to openly discuss technical issues gets even more constrained. I actually like discussing the technical stuff - regardless of which way it cuts for marketing purposes.

Case in point, I now know why a certain magazine citation is so hard to pry out of someone - and I still say the methodology was utter crap...

-jjf