Differences between dyno tune and mail flash
Newbie
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 25
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From: Glendale Heights, IL
It will definitely need to correct beyond a certain percentage. As I get a chance to do less anecdotal observation of the Evolution I'll be able to add more objective analysis there, but at its core, think of it this way, if you go from an ethanol region to a non ethanol region, your stoichimetric trims can be off as much as 5-10%. So if there was no "proper" compensation that would truly mean that your WOT fueling would be off by a similar percentage.
When I did a lot of the beta testing for the UTEC back in the WRX days, that was a trend that I had to grab the Subaru community by the horns and shake like a rabid dog, in order to understand properly. Since the UTEC doesn't adhere to fuel trim in it's open loop modes, it's a wonderful case in point.
There would be people who would travel to a non ethanol region after being tuned (in an ethanol region), and all of the sudden be half an AFR richer when they filled up with non ethanol laced fuel.
Let me tell ya, that made for an interesting read with a bag of popcorn over a 6 months period, a few years ago.
EDIT: to finish the thought on that story, what's interesting is that the biggest debate was between myself and TurboXS themselves (never having seen that trend), ironically, now that most of the eastern seaboard is on ethanol laced fuel, they're quickly realizing what I was talking about, and in some cases, loosing motors over it.
I tell customers outright; "Bring enough fuel to get to me and tune on from whatever pump you go to week in and week out." I learned that the hard way years ago.
Jorge (RiftsWRX)
www.ProjectWRX.com
When I did a lot of the beta testing for the UTEC back in the WRX days, that was a trend that I had to grab the Subaru community by the horns and shake like a rabid dog, in order to understand properly. Since the UTEC doesn't adhere to fuel trim in it's open loop modes, it's a wonderful case in point.
There would be people who would travel to a non ethanol region after being tuned (in an ethanol region), and all of the sudden be half an AFR richer when they filled up with non ethanol laced fuel.
Let me tell ya, that made for an interesting read with a bag of popcorn over a 6 months period, a few years ago.EDIT: to finish the thought on that story, what's interesting is that the biggest debate was between myself and TurboXS themselves (never having seen that trend), ironically, now that most of the eastern seaboard is on ethanol laced fuel, they're quickly realizing what I was talking about, and in some cases, loosing motors over it.
I tell customers outright; "Bring enough fuel to get to me and tune on from whatever pump you go to week in and week out." I learned that the hard way years ago.
Jorge (RiftsWRX)
www.ProjectWRX.com
Last edited by RiftsWRX; Jan 24, 2008 at 02:53 PM. Reason: my grammar and spelling own me today
TouringBubble, you haven't had the experience where you flash your ROM and go do a WOT run then after a 15 min drive or so you do another WOT run and your AFR is not the same? This has to do with fuel trims, doesn't it?
But to get back on topic, I had almost forgotten about the tuners using logs from the owner's car and creating tunes. This can be like a custom tune. But don't these tuners only do an exchange of logs and fine-tuning maybe 2 or 3 times? I don't know if that is enough times to equal a custom tune. But then again it could be since these tuners have the experience.
But to get back on topic, I had almost forgotten about the tuners using logs from the owner's car and creating tunes. This can be like a custom tune. But don't these tuners only do an exchange of logs and fine-tuning maybe 2 or 3 times? I don't know if that is enough times to equal a custom tune. But then again it could be since these tuners have the experience.
You are correct, Jorge. If the the stoich value of the fuel changes, the tuned AFR will change. I notice that often when running a toluene mix.
Roger, I have experienced some shifts in AFR with some time between tunes. I believe I mentioned that in the previous post. I actually posted in a thread in the ECUFlash forum about my experience which seemed to be in line with another users experience.
However, I did say "seems" to be related to trims. If you think about the way the 3 LTFTs are set up for the Evo, they apply to ranges of airflow ... something like 0 - 100 hz, 100 - 500 hz and 500+ hz. If you are at WOT, you will almost always be in that 500+ hz zone (LTFT high). If the LTFT high values has 0% correction (as most Evos do), why would the tuned AFR change in that zone?
Back on topic ... some tuners tune till it's right no matter how many logs it takes. Of course, you can't cater that way to a customer who simply wants changes made and does not actually require them.
Roger, I have experienced some shifts in AFR with some time between tunes. I believe I mentioned that in the previous post. I actually posted in a thread in the ECUFlash forum about my experience which seemed to be in line with another users experience.
However, I did say "seems" to be related to trims. If you think about the way the 3 LTFTs are set up for the Evo, they apply to ranges of airflow ... something like 0 - 100 hz, 100 - 500 hz and 500+ hz. If you are at WOT, you will almost always be in that 500+ hz zone (LTFT high). If the LTFT high values has 0% correction (as most Evos do), why would the tuned AFR change in that zone?
Back on topic ... some tuners tune till it's right no matter how many logs it takes. Of course, you can't cater that way to a customer who simply wants changes made and does not actually require them.
Newbie
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 25
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From: Glendale Heights, IL
You are correct, Jorge. If the the stoich value of the fuel changes, the tuned AFR will change. I notice that often when running a toluene mix.
Roger, I have experienced some shifts in AFR with some time between tunes. I believe I mentioned that in the previous post. I actually posted in a thread in the ECUFlash forum about my experience which seemed to be in line with another users experience.
However, I did say "seems" to be related to trims. If you think about the way the 3 LTFTs are set up for the Evo, they apply to ranges of airflow ... something like 0 - 100 hz, 100 - 500 hz and 500+ hz. If you are at WOT, you will almost always be in that 500+ hz zone (LTFT high). If the LTFT high values has 0% correction (as most Evos do), why would the tuned AFR change in that zone?
Back on topic ... some tuners tune till it's right no matter how many logs it takes. Of course, you can't cater that way to a customer who simply wants changes made and does not actually require them.
Roger, I have experienced some shifts in AFR with some time between tunes. I believe I mentioned that in the previous post. I actually posted in a thread in the ECUFlash forum about my experience which seemed to be in line with another users experience.
However, I did say "seems" to be related to trims. If you think about the way the 3 LTFTs are set up for the Evo, they apply to ranges of airflow ... something like 0 - 100 hz, 100 - 500 hz and 500+ hz. If you are at WOT, you will almost always be in that 500+ hz zone (LTFT high). If the LTFT high values has 0% correction (as most Evos do), why would the tuned AFR change in that zone?
Back on topic ... some tuners tune till it's right no matter how many logs it takes. Of course, you can't cater that way to a customer who simply wants changes made and does not actually require them.
In the Subaru world, it's where you actually click into open look that matters. So, if you stomp on it off idle, and the idle trim is 5%, then it will carry that 5% across the entire event.
If a rolling trim is 3%, then it's 3%, and obviously a higher MPH trim would be different. If you think about it, it makes sense. But that's due to the nature of flow dynamics and thermodynamics under various loads.
I can't say for SURE that is how the EVO works, but it's been the trend on most every other OBD based car I've spent time with.
Jorge (RiftsWRX)
www.ProjectWRX.com
One thing I can add is that it's an OBD-II strategy, Subaru's are the same way. Based on g/sec, but still a direct proportionate.
In the Subaru world, it's where you actually click into open look that matters. So, if you stomp on it off idle, and the idle trim is 5%, then it will carry that 5% across the entire event.
If a rolling trim is 3%, then it's 3%, and obviously a higher MPH trim would be different. If you think about it, it makes sense. But that's due to the nature of flow dynamics and thermodynamics under various loads.
I can't say for SURE that is how the EVO works, but it's been the trend on most every other OBD based car I've spent time with.
Jorge (RiftsWRX)
www.ProjectWRX.com
In the Subaru world, it's where you actually click into open look that matters. So, if you stomp on it off idle, and the idle trim is 5%, then it will carry that 5% across the entire event.
If a rolling trim is 3%, then it's 3%, and obviously a higher MPH trim would be different. If you think about it, it makes sense. But that's due to the nature of flow dynamics and thermodynamics under various loads.
I can't say for SURE that is how the EVO works, but it's been the trend on most every other OBD based car I've spent time with.
Jorge (RiftsWRX)
www.ProjectWRX.com
I don't think that has ever been considered ... at least vocally on the forums here.
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From: Virginia Beach, Virginia
Just to clear up some common misconceptions....not every e-flash tuner is the same! Most of them will send you a rom and a few revisions and call it a day and ignore your requests for help after the sale even if the car is still knocking badly. I've heard this time and time again from customers that came to me for help after they were ignored by their previous tuner.
I tune my remote customers the exact same way I would if I were setting in the car with them. We do some pulls, I review the logs, I modify the ROM. We keep going until it's perfect. The only difference is that I'm not physically in the car so naturally it takes a bit longer for logs/roms to be exchanged via e-mail.
I do not offer a canned tune and limit you to 1-2 revisions...some cars take 5 revisions and some take 15 to get it perfect and for that reason it's extremely rare that a customer ask for more revisions. In fact I don't think it's ever happened. I'm pretty **** about it being right...after all it's got my name on it. I even run the before and after logs through DLL to get a simulated dyno overlay to see where the gains were made and make sure it's as strong as it should be for the mods/boost/octane etc... (examples in the review section of this forum, search for threads with Mellon in the title)
The same goes for dyno tunes, they aren't all the same either...Personally I think a road tune is far better than a dyno tune. I can't count how many customers that have come to me with a nice looking dyno plot but the car was a mess on the street/strip with knock because the dyno couldn't properly simulate load/temperatures. Some have noticed that their dyno tuner purposely de-tuned the car after the dyno session was over by adding more fuel and pulling out timing and didn't even put it on the street to see how it behaves.
either way you'll end up with a great tune if you go with either of us so it comes down to how much you want to pay. Personally I think my tunes are too cheap for the amount of time I put into each one and sadly most people don't realize how much further I go with each tune until they've actually experienced a Mellon Tune for themselves.
I tune my remote customers the exact same way I would if I were setting in the car with them. We do some pulls, I review the logs, I modify the ROM. We keep going until it's perfect. The only difference is that I'm not physically in the car so naturally it takes a bit longer for logs/roms to be exchanged via e-mail.
I do not offer a canned tune and limit you to 1-2 revisions...some cars take 5 revisions and some take 15 to get it perfect and for that reason it's extremely rare that a customer ask for more revisions. In fact I don't think it's ever happened. I'm pretty **** about it being right...after all it's got my name on it. I even run the before and after logs through DLL to get a simulated dyno overlay to see where the gains were made and make sure it's as strong as it should be for the mods/boost/octane etc... (examples in the review section of this forum, search for threads with Mellon in the title)
The same goes for dyno tunes, they aren't all the same either...Personally I think a road tune is far better than a dyno tune. I can't count how many customers that have come to me with a nice looking dyno plot but the car was a mess on the street/strip with knock because the dyno couldn't properly simulate load/temperatures. Some have noticed that their dyno tuner purposely de-tuned the car after the dyno session was over by adding more fuel and pulling out timing and didn't even put it on the street to see how it behaves.
either way you'll end up with a great tune if you go with either of us so it comes down to how much you want to pay. Personally I think my tunes are too cheap for the amount of time I put into each one and sadly most people don't realize how much further I go with each tune until they've actually experienced a Mellon Tune for themselves.
TTP-Engineering does not limit the amount of revisions to any of our eflash products.
We can eflash while on the dyno or receiving street pull datalogging information.
However long is needed to deem an eflash tune complete is how long is spent on each reflash.
No customer is left un-satisfied as we will continue to work with each individual as long as necessary to optimize their eflash program.
If anyone has any questions regarding our services, please feel free to send us a PM here or email via sales @ TTP-Engineering.com.
Thanks
TTP
P.S. Poll results are here regarding leading eflash tuners with experiences shared with the community.
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/po...ts&pollid=4306
We can eflash while on the dyno or receiving street pull datalogging information.
However long is needed to deem an eflash tune complete is how long is spent on each reflash.
No customer is left un-satisfied as we will continue to work with each individual as long as necessary to optimize their eflash program.
If anyone has any questions regarding our services, please feel free to send us a PM here or email via sales @ TTP-Engineering.com.
Thanks
TTP
P.S. Poll results are here regarding leading eflash tuners with experiences shared with the community.
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/po...ts&pollid=4306
Last edited by TTP Engineering; Jan 25, 2008 at 01:43 PM.
