Originally Posted by MisterSpoot

I doubt Toyota is sitting on its laurels either. If they remain fat and happy, they'd end up in trouble. They've made a lot of progress to get where they are. Anyone have a Toyota in the 70s? Yes, they rusted through faster than even an American car. This was still somewhat the case through the 80s because they used scrap steel to make the body panels, and only luxury marques were galvanizing.

And yes, people like their cars plain and boring. There are a lot of folks who simply view them as an appliance and almost can't fathom spending $30,000+ for a car that to them adds no real benefit. Nevermind styling. Heck, my folks have been driving Toyotas for the past 22 years, and they don't like the new styling of the Matrix, any of the Scion lineup, and get this -- the Camry. They'd prefer the early 90's styling instead! The target market for the Accord/Camry is very fickle in regards to styling, which is why the cars have remained rather staid all this time. They don't want manual transmissions, jumpy engines, and edgy styling. They want anonyminity, general comfort and convenience, good fuel economy, good residual value, and low auto insurance rates. Toyota does extremely well in that regard.

Another thing... when was the last time Toyota's market owned a sports car? If they had to put things off because of family, probably not for some time. And the thing is, with the major changes to transmission, tire (huge changes), and suspension technology over the years -- a Camry Solara V6 would give a lot of cars from 20 - 25 years ago (bone stock...) a brutal thrashing on a road course, and would be within a half-second at the drag strip with all but the best of the 60s. A lot of those cars on stock tires were only putting down around mid-to-upper 14's, and only a handful were breaking into the high 13s straight off the lot. So aside from the tire-smokin' and insane amounts of torque, a Solara V6 would give your folks a similar feeling to a 1967 GTO with the 400, or a 1967 Firebird.

When my pops came over last, I showed him the spec sheet for the Evolution MR I should have in a few short months. His remark is that the performance was so excessive, he doesn't feel it should be street legal. This is coming from a guy that would illegally drag-race with an Oldsmobile equipped with a 440 -- and had so much power it would literally set its nylon tires on fire.

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Someone mentioned Hyundai/Kia. I'll say this -- anyone who thinks that they haven't made humungous strides in the past 10 years is kidding themselves. Talk about rags to riches. Hyundai would easily be the butt of many car jokes not too long ago, but they're positioning themselves to be a major player in the next 10-15 years.

In '03 Hyundai's had the lowest reported defects per 100 vehicles of any company at 102. Big T came in with 103 (tied with Honda). Their main problems now is waiting for their tarnished image to fade, and further refinement of their lineup -- less engine vibration/noise, less wind/road noise, and more interior panache. Their price advantage will shrink with it, but if they keep pushing quality and maintain that warranty package, they will quickly start putting noticable dents in the sales of the Tier-1 Japanese automakers.

Originally Posted by MisterSpoot

TRD packages are aftermarket, technically, since they don't offer the full Toyota warranty.

Originally Posted by MisterSpoot

RSX and TSX don't have the oomph. If those are sports cars, so's my V6 Eclipse -- which I NEVER considered to be a sports car.

S6 and S8 are no longer in production. If anything I'll add the TT 3.2 to the list since it has major suspension changes over the 1.8s. The 3.2 holds against an R32

M5 is no longer in production.

Focus SVT is no longer in production. The GT isn't in production yet, but close. I'd throw it in.

X-Type 3.0 is not a sports car. Sorry. A 330Ci is a heck of a lot more sporty than an X-Type 3.0, and I still consider the E46 to be sporty except in M form. Also, try getting an XJ to do anything aside from running in a straight-line. In that regard, take the S-Type off the list -- I've had the chance to pilot that and while fun on the highway, it's too hesitant on backroads.

The Lexus 4.3L has amazing grunt, but truthfully, the GS isn't a great handler. It's good, but not great. Also why I left the SC430 off the list.

LS still trips over its own two feet despite major suspension revisions, and the slushbox 4-speed still ruins the potential of that 4.0L V8.

Despite the Miata's exceptional handling capabilities, it's still not quick in the straights. To me it's like the MR2 -- if they gave it some serious punch, then yes. Of course, a 200HP stock Miata would mean I'd have one in my driveway.

Sentra V-Spec? If so, then a Civic Si is a sports car. And a Lancer Ralliart. And a Corolla/Matrix XRS. Again, sporty, not sports.

Try tracking a 9-3 or 9-5, bone stock... again, sporty, not sports.

TRD packages are aftermarket, technically, since they don't offer the full Toyota warranty. The list above was cars that were bone stock.

Originally Posted by erikgj