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Old Nov 18, 2008 | 10:01 AM
  #16  
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Brake pads. The pads for the stock Brembos are absolute crap. Get some decent Hawks, Carbotechs, or whatever your brake pad of choice is - anything but stock.
With good initial bite and more rear brake bias, you'll be able to brake much later and more confidently than you normally would have, and with enough practice, you can also rotate the car on turn-in.

Also, I would highly recommend staying on street tires for a while, depending on how new you are. I don't know how long "a while" is, but in general, I've seen a lot of newer people make the mistake of going to R-comps too early - they get frustrated quickly and throw money at race tires since those will make the biggest gains, and remain hacky drivers because they didn't "learn to walk before they could run", so to speak. R-comps will cover up your mistakes, so unless you're confident you've gotten 100% out of good street tires, then it would be better - for developing as a driver, anyway - to stay away from them in the short-term.
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Old Nov 19, 2008 | 06:53 PM
  #17  
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As you can see from the picture above, the stock EVO suspension is pretty bad. Too soft, too sloppy, with no roll or camber control. Your car likely understeers horrifically if its still stock. Here's my quick & dirty autocross set-up tips, stemming from competing for over 20 years in the sport.
  • Performance alignment: Max out the front camber adjustment, and if the car allows it match the rear camber. Toe in the rear 1/8".
  • Front swaybar: Go for the biggest adjustable bar you can find.
  • Brake pads: Get more aggressive compound pads, but ones that work well cold. They will likely be noisy, dusty, but it helps. We measured 0.9 g threshold braking with RB front pads only, on Star Specs.
  • Get Real Tires: If you are new to the sport don't by "R" compounds (as many have suggested. A great dual purpose tire for street driving and autocross (or track) use is the Dunlop Direzza Star Spec. See pics below. We managed 1.02 g lateral in a totally stock EVO X with 245mm Star Specs and an alignment. Almost anything in the 140-200 treadwear range is going to be a huge improvement, but can still withstand street use: Yokohama Advan AD07 (soon AD08), Kumho XS (new), Bridgestone RE01R (soon RE11R), etc.
  • Lose Weight: Lower weight is always always better. You have to accelerate, turn, and stop every pound on board, so losing pounds helps in every direction. Pull all of the unnecessary crap outta the car, like the spare tire, jack, any removable stereo speakers/crap, and run with the least fuel you can while avoiding fuel starvation (The EVO5-9 can run pretty low, but the EVO X has a terrible tank design and needs a half tank, minimum)
  • Tire Pressures: If the car understeers (and it will, even with all of these tricks) run more front pressure than rear. Start at 40-42 psi front, 30-35 psi rear. It will at least plow less.
  • Get a real suspension: When you can afford it, and when you're ready with your driving skill level, get adjustable coilover dampers (the best you can afford, especially AST! hehe), up the spring rates (a lot), and get camber plates (Vorshlag!) for the front and dial in -3.5° to -4° of camber for autocross use.


Of course driving instruction performed by a good, qualified autocrosser is invaluable, and driving can make the biggest improvement of all. The EVO school is the best autocrosser school in the world, bar none. Money well spent! A seasoned, talented autocrosser can hop in and go faster in an unmodified car than a newbie in the most modified car in the world. In autocrossing, nothing trumps skill.

Cheers,
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Old Nov 28, 2008 | 03:10 PM
  #18  
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Since you're on a budget I'm going to agree with the guy who recommended Swift springs and a big rear swaybar + alignment and proper tire pressures. Can get better pads and tires etc. when cash permits.

I find that alot of the trick is in the driving though.

I try to practice my wheelwork alot (fast and accurate hands). Rapid change of direction, lock to lock steering, that kind of stuff. Can't tell you how many times I've dumped a good run because my hands were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

The other thing that helped me alot in mitigating understeer was simply braking harder, but not necessarily later. Once you know how to use the full potential of the brakes instictively it's alot easier to get the slow in/fast out technique working for you - always staying within the traction circle.

Also, one thing that was a revelation to me was learning how to think ahead on the course...instead of steering through the cones I'm AT and going straight at the next gate I found I got alot quicker when I was actually thinking about 2 gates ahead and steering as if I were going through the NEXT gate after the one I'm bearing down on at any given time (if that makes sense). Cleaner lines I guess.

Might seem dumb/obvious but lots to be said for simply having the basics - awareness of the traction envelope, how to work with and control control the car's roll and mass, quick hands on the wheel etc. Then at least you're not overcooking it into the corners or hamming up steeting inputs and maximizing what performance potential you have.

I put alot of money into modding my car before I fully new how to drive and IMHO it's the driving technique that makes the biggest difference - performance mods simply widen the envelope if done correctly. Even with a truckload of mods I still screw up the occasional run here and there due to bad driving - occasionally I even screw up all my runs that way!

In the end I guess I've found that there's no point in being afraid to suck. Instead of trying to win I just try to keep it clean and try to do better than the last run. Each time I mess up my driving some guy who drives better will just beat me in a less modded car...such is life. So after a basically decent setup the driving is the key I reckon

3 years in and still improving

Last edited by theshadow; Nov 28, 2008 at 03:27 PM.
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Old Nov 29, 2008 | 08:09 AM
  #19  
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Fair: Allot of people run higher pressures in the rear; this will help the car rotoate, without the sloppy feeling a low rear pressure gives you. the rule of thumb is, lower your tire pressures down to the lowest you can without sacrificing grip, sidewall rollover, and feel. then go up ~ 4 lbs in the rear to help the car rotate if needed. In the STS subaru 2.5 rs I occasionally drive, I run 32 front 35 rear with ~3 degrees of neg front camber, the car rotates so well its silly for an awd car. In the evo I run (it depends on street vs R comps) 34 front 36 rear for street tires, and it also rotates wonderfully.

and obviously, tire pressure varries with each brand of tire. Dunlops sidewalls are fairly stiff, so I get away with pressures in the 30's, but RE01R's (and R1R's, toyos also have soft sidewalls) are a different story.
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Old Nov 29, 2008 | 09:20 AM
  #20  
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Originally Posted by Fair
[[LIST][*]Performance alignment: Max out the front camber adjustment, and if the car allows it match the rear camber. Toe in the rear 1/8".
Rear "toe in" on a car that understeers like the evo? I dont understand. Match the front with camber in the rear?
Why wouldnt you toe out the rear and take away the camber (maybe run 1deg.) to get the rear to rotate around the front and negate some of that plowing you talk about?
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Old Dec 1, 2008 | 06:27 AM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by spool_sample
Also, I would highly recommend staying on street tires for a while, depending on how new you are. I don't know how long "a while" is, but in general, I've seen a lot of newer people make the mistake of going to R-comps too early - they get frustrated quickly and throw money at race tires since those will make the biggest gains, and remain hacky drivers because they didn't "learn to walk before they could run", so to speak. R-comps will cover up your mistakes, so unless you're confident you've gotten 100% out of good street tires, then it would be better - for developing as a driver, anyway - to stay away from them in the short-term.
I disagree. I think R-compounds magnify your mistakes. They have a much larger difference between static and dynamic friction than street tires, so when you cross the line its harder to recover. They also let you get going faster where a missed turn-in adds that much more time.

They do take some time to get used to. And a warning: they're addictive and expensive. Crack has nothing on Hoosier.
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Old Dec 1, 2008 | 06:59 AM
  #22  
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Subscribed.

I want to learn a lot from this too. I discovered AX in late '06, and the last two seasons have been cut short by getting deployed.
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Old Dec 1, 2008 | 09:44 AM
  #23  
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I'm interested in this thread as well. I have a stock Evo except for Tanabe GF-210 springs and just completed my first year autocrossing (did a dozen or so events) and definitely want to get into it more. However, I know I can be much faster by improving myself rather than throwing money at parts, especially after only one season and before I understand the technical benefits of the parts.

I am going to be running STU next year and will definitely order some 245/40/17 Star Specs to replace my crappy Sumitomos. The only other thing I am considering at the moment is camber plates to switch between street and autoX setups and a rear sway bar. Other than that, my money's going towards autocross schools and seat time.

Question on the camber plates: I know that when you change camber, you change toe as well. I would like a normal street alignment with zero toe as this is my daily driver and I put 15k miles on it a year. Is it possible to have this marked (or at the camber plate max so I know where it is) and the -3 degrees camber for autoX marked as well and easily switch between them? Thanks.
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Old Dec 1, 2008 | 09:52 AM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by delongedoug
Question on the camber plates: I know that when you change camber, you change toe as well. I would like a normal street alignment with zero toe as this is my daily driver and I put 15k miles on it a year. Is it possible to have this marked (or at the camber plate max so I know where it is) and the -3 degrees camber for autoX marked as well and easily switch between them? Thanks.
The short answer is no. For tire wear, toe adjustment has to be pretty exact. A 1/4 turn on the tie rod can throw it out enough to negatively affect tire wear. Buy a set of these and you can set your toe before and after each event.
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Old Dec 1, 2008 | 12:32 PM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by GTLocke13
I disagree. I think R-compounds magnify your mistakes. They have a much larger difference between static and dynamic friction than street tires, so when you cross the line its harder to recover. They also let you get going faster where a missed turn-in adds that much more time.

They do take some time to get used to. And a warning: they're addictive and expensive. Crack has nothing on Hoosier.
I dont agree with you at all . After spending one full season on Street tires, One half and half, and one full R comps, I can assure you R-comps hide your mistakes.

Bombed into that corner a bit hard? Crank the wheel and the car will go there, albeit scrubbing all the speed you carried. But it FEELS like the car turned and did what it was supposed to. On Street tires you would have pushed wide and plowed those pointer cones on the outside.

Street tires do have a more linear breakaway that R comps, and thats what makes them a great learning tool. You can get past the limit without spinning, learn to control the car and how it moves when sliding (either under or oversteer). R-comps can just "let go" and a beginner would have no idea what they did wrong. ST's give you a much better feel of how the car acts at the limit, right before you loose grip. Then, when you move to R comps, you can used your newfound feel to do the same.




Originally Posted by delongedoug
I'm interested in this thread as well. I have a stock Evo except for Tanabe GF-210 springs and just completed my first year autocrossing (did a dozen or so events) and definitely want to get into it more. However, I know I can be much faster by improving myself rather than throwing money at parts, especially after only one season and before I understand the technical benefits of the parts.

I am going to be running STU next year and will definitely order some 245/40/17 Star Specs to replace my crappy Sumitomos. The only other thing I am considering at the moment is camber plates to switch between street and autoX setups and a rear sway bar. Other than that, my money's going towards autocross schools and seat time.

Question on the camber plates: I know that when you change camber, you change toe as well. I would like a normal street alignment with zero toe as this is my daily driver and I put 15k miles on it a year. Is it possible to have this marked (or at the camber plate max so I know where it is) and the -3 degrees camber for autoX marked as well and easily switch between them? Thanks.
Honestly, if you run ~2 1/4 degrees of camber with 0 toe on the street, and rotate your tires often, you wont see too much camber wear. its not optimal for either auto-x or street driving, but if you dont want to set it every event, you can do that.
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Old Dec 1, 2008 | 12:43 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by RaNGVR-4
I dont agree with you at all . After spending one full season on Street tires, One half and half, and one full R comps, I can assure you R-comps hide your mistakes.

Bombed into that corner a bit hard? Crank the wheel and the car will go there, albeit scrubbing all the speed you carried. But it FEELS like the car turned and did what it was supposed to. On Street tires you would have pushed wide and plowed those pointer cones on the outside.

Street tires do have a more linear breakaway that R comps, and thats what makes them a great learning tool. You can get past the limit without spinning, learn to control the car and how it moves when sliding (either under or oversteer). R-comps can just "let go" and a beginner would have no idea what they did wrong. ST's give you a much better feel of how the car acts at the limit, right before you loose grip. Then, when you move to R comps, you can used your newfound feel to do the same.
I can see your point, but I only spent about 8 events on the street tires before moving to R-compounds and I don't think my driving suffered for it. I just don't see that much difference between the two. An overcooked corner is an overcooked corner, whether you have gobs of grip or not. I think to be really fast on R-compounds takes slightly quicker reflexes than street tires. I guess my point is that you have to learn to drive the car all over again once you make the switch. If you just learn the first time on R-compounds you'll save yourself a whole bunch of time.
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Old Dec 1, 2008 | 03:18 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by RaNGVR-4
Honestly, if you run ~2 1/4 degrees of camber with 0 toe on the street, and rotate your tires often, you wont see too much camber wear. its not optimal for either auto-x or street driving, but if you dont want to set it every event, you can do that.
Hmm, so I could have a setting that's not optimal for either but will be decent. What's your take on getting an alignment for street with zero toe and switching to -3 for autoX via a mark on the camber plates? Will this really mess up my toe and make it not possible to switch back to exactly zero toe? I'm pretty curious about being able to switch between 2 marked settings on camber plates.
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Old Dec 1, 2008 | 03:20 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by GTLocke13
I guess my point is that you have to learn to drive the car all over again once you make the switch. If you just learn the first time on R-compounds you'll save yourself a whole bunch of time.
I generally dis-agree with that too. Yes, you have to "re-learn" to drive r-comps, but you carry lots of good habits into that from your street tire experience. Smoothness at turn in, transitions, braking...all the things you learn to do smoothly on street tires translates well to r-comps. R's can mask some of that choppiness. It all works ouyt in the end, and some people just "get it" right away, but for most, I think the one to two years on street tires definately helps.
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Old Dec 1, 2008 | 03:24 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by GTLocke13
I can see your point, but I only spent about 8 events on the street tires before moving to R-compounds and I don't think my driving suffered for it. I just don't see that much difference between the two. An overcooked corner is an overcooked corner, whether you have gobs of grip or not. I think to be really fast on R-compounds takes slightly quicker reflexes than street tires. I guess my point is that you have to learn to drive the car all over again once you make the switch. If you just learn the first time on R-compounds you'll save yourself a whole bunch of time.
Its a different animal to drive on R comps, but its not learning to drive all over again. The reason you feel you need quicker reflexes, is the good street tires actually have stiffer sidewalls than hoosiers A6. My Dunlops feel extremely direct, while my hoosiers I can feel the sidewall flop over, then the extreme amount of grip kicks in. and my R comp setup is fairly stretched, so it shouldnt have much sidewall movement.

and, if youre too hot into a corner, yes, its always slow, but Rcomps still hold on, where-as street tires give you the frustrationg push and loss of grip. My region is full of national contenders, and every one of them recommends learning on street tires for a season.
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Old Dec 1, 2008 | 05:20 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by delongedoug
Hmm, so I could have a setting that's not optimal for either but will be decent. What's your take on getting an alignment for street with zero toe and switching to -3 for autoX via a mark on the camber plates? Will this really mess up my toe and make it not possible to switch back to exactly zero toe? I'm pretty curious about being able to switch between 2 marked settings on camber plates.
I'm also curious about this as well.
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