ECU Calibration Sharing - Clarification Requested
Evolving Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 155
Likes: 0
From: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted by spt
That's the point. For all I know there could be a few tuners that have something stated in a receipt, website, or actually have a contract that customers sign (maybe within a disclaimer that no one bothers to read). I know when I ran the project evo for the first time on a local shop's dyno, they had a clause in their dyno safty wavier which said the following: "any custom tune provided to the customer is copywrited by the tuner/shop."
The point I was making was it's too much of a grey area and we can't say for sure how every tuner does it.
The point I was making was it's too much of a grey area and we can't say for sure how every tuner does it.
For example:
I had my car tuned by an AEM certified tuner about a month and a half ago. I took the head off after blowing a head gasket. Upon inspection, there was pitting on the pistons and head. (OUCH) Thankfully, I caught it early before really expensive damage was done (greater than $1k). Now, I downloaded the map into my laptop immediately to discuss with the tuner. Long story short, the map only partially matched his final map. I will need to post both maps to get opinions/feedback on how my map got corrupted and my engine started to blow up. I paid for the maps. I own the copyright. Why should you block my attempt at getting help? I have another map created by another tuner and it caused my headgasket to blow too but there was no detonation (thankfully!). If I own the map (and by extension, the copyright) then why should I not be able to post it to ask for help in figuring out why my headgasket blew? Again, I paid for the map. The map is therefore a work-for-hire (read the actual copyright law) and I get to decide how it is distributed.
I have more to say, but I will say it in response to Al's message below.
strike
Evolving Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 155
Likes: 0
From: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted by Speedlimit
There is also loss of value test that should be considered. If you post a generic map purchased from a vendor, then its value becomes zero, regardless of any copyright argument. A vendor would have a reasonable case for damages as a history of selling flashes should establish use. Unless you are willing to sign an agreement to accept, without limitation, liability for this site, a broad axe must be used in those gray areas.
And I don't believe it is going to diminish the technical discussion nor block a fledgling technology. (although this is not a new technology.) Take a look at the quality and detail being discussed in the ECUflash forum. All without using purchased maps as a premise.
Speedlimit..
And I don't believe it is going to diminish the technical discussion nor block a fledgling technology. (although this is not a new technology.) Take a look at the quality and detail being discussed in the ECUflash forum. All without using purchased maps as a premise.
Speedlimit..
Read my response to Al below before you assume I have any particular position on this subject.
strike
Evolving Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 155
Likes: 0
From: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
I appreciate the position of the administration in regard to this matter
I wanted to add that without revenue generated from tuning no R & D and testing could be conducted to create the base maps and further the knowlege of how to adjust the ecu settings in a reliable and effective manner.
For example, on the Buschur Flash alone, David Buschur and I spent at least 5 full days of dyno work alone.
On my own reflashes, i did huge amounts of beta testing and development testing and retesting the initial customers over and over again to product a quality product which could produce the kind of results I have obtained.
I have personally spent over $65,000 in dyno time doing custom tuning to date.
Not to mention the thousands of dollars of equipment utlizied in the tuning process.
I spent 4 months of almost daily effort and $12,000 to get the IX flash up and running.
Finally, many reflash vendors support this forum and pay to maintain dedicated sub forums to offer customer support.
All of this takes a lot of hard work, time and investment.
I am not the only tuner who has followed this path, Works, Turbo Trixs and Vishnu are a few others who have done the same type of effort.
If people could just steal the tuning parameters that I and others have created then there would not be any reason to invest additional time, resources and effort to further the development of stock ecu flashing maps.
I personally, do not mind spending $15.00 to obtain a CD or DVD that I want. There are those how ever who would rather steal the product without paying.
To remove all doubt on this subject, all work that I do is now copyrighted and I reserve all rights in the intellectual property of the maps I create.
End users are granted a license to utilize the maps for their own personal use and to examine and compile the data in any form they desire, but they are not allowed to sell the information to others or provide copies to anyone else.
Everyone who purchases my products does so under these terms and is free to not make a purchase if they do not agree.
I have no intentions to waste my time going around suing people who rip off my work.
I hoping that people in the Evo community will respect the work that I (and other tuners) have done and realize that the only way to have professional tuners working to develop products for these cars is to not allow people to steal the work of the tuners.
You can buy a tuning map from myself from $49.99 - $199.99 depending on the format and type of tune. Hopefully these prices are resonable enough and the quality of the end product good enough that no evo owners will be motivated to try and copy maps from others and steal the information. Bu buying your map you get customer support, assurance that you have the correct map and someone standing behind what is sold.
Thanks for your time.
I wanted to add that without revenue generated from tuning no R & D and testing could be conducted to create the base maps and further the knowlege of how to adjust the ecu settings in a reliable and effective manner.
For example, on the Buschur Flash alone, David Buschur and I spent at least 5 full days of dyno work alone.
On my own reflashes, i did huge amounts of beta testing and development testing and retesting the initial customers over and over again to product a quality product which could produce the kind of results I have obtained.
I have personally spent over $65,000 in dyno time doing custom tuning to date.
Not to mention the thousands of dollars of equipment utlizied in the tuning process.
I spent 4 months of almost daily effort and $12,000 to get the IX flash up and running.
Finally, many reflash vendors support this forum and pay to maintain dedicated sub forums to offer customer support.
All of this takes a lot of hard work, time and investment.
I am not the only tuner who has followed this path, Works, Turbo Trixs and Vishnu are a few others who have done the same type of effort.
If people could just steal the tuning parameters that I and others have created then there would not be any reason to invest additional time, resources and effort to further the development of stock ecu flashing maps.
I personally, do not mind spending $15.00 to obtain a CD or DVD that I want. There are those how ever who would rather steal the product without paying.
To remove all doubt on this subject, all work that I do is now copyrighted and I reserve all rights in the intellectual property of the maps I create.
End users are granted a license to utilize the maps for their own personal use and to examine and compile the data in any form they desire, but they are not allowed to sell the information to others or provide copies to anyone else.
Everyone who purchases my products does so under these terms and is free to not make a purchase if they do not agree.
I have no intentions to waste my time going around suing people who rip off my work.
I hoping that people in the Evo community will respect the work that I (and other tuners) have done and realize that the only way to have professional tuners working to develop products for these cars is to not allow people to steal the work of the tuners.
You can buy a tuning map from myself from $49.99 - $199.99 depending on the format and type of tune. Hopefully these prices are resonable enough and the quality of the end product good enough that no evo owners will be motivated to try and copy maps from others and steal the information. Bu buying your map you get customer support, assurance that you have the correct map and someone standing behind what is sold.
Thanks for your time.
Al, You make great points concerning revenue and such. If you wish to protect your revenue, I strongly suggest that you consult with a lawyer on whether or not your work is copyrightrightable (or maybe patentable?). It is not clear whether or not a set of parameters is coverable under copyright law. My guess is that since it is parameters and not instructions, it is not able to be covered under copyright... but I am not a Lawyer.
I fully agree with you that any Joe Shmoe should NOT be able to download your map that you worked so hard on and then redistribute it without you getting a cut. There must be some law that covers such things, but you should speak with a lawyer first.
My guess (again, I am not a lawyer) is that any custom flashes that you have done would not be owned by you since they were a work for hire. You have likely lost all rights to any custom flashes you have already done. Get with a lawyer and have him help you write up a contract for any future custom flashes that ensure that you retain any intellectual proprty rights to them. This will protect future custom flashes.
As for the mail-in flashes and such, I feel fairly certain that you do retain any intellectual proprty rights to those because you created them for yourself and distribute them unmodified to others.
One last quibble: It is NOT stealing. Stealing implies that you have lost something. Ideas can not be stolen, they can only be shared. "If I light my torch from your torch, you have not lost any flame but I have gained flame.) Your "intellectual property" rights might have been violated, but nothing has been stolen.
Seriously, talk with a lawyer. Vendors should be able to protect their hard work. As it is, I doubt ANY vendor has written up a legally binding contract that ensures that they retain any intellectual property rights to their creations. All of it is considered work-for-hire otherwise.
In conclusion: If EvoM management wishes to prevent the sharing of maps, then it is not on any legal basis but out of an attempt to help vendors gain (or not lose) potential revenue.
strike
Originally Posted by strikethree
Al, You make great points concerning revenue and such. If you wish to protect your revenue, I strongly suggest that you consult with a lawyer on whether or not your work is copyrightrightable (or maybe patentable?).
AEM has talked about offering password protection to their EMS's for years. The way I see it, it is never going to happen. Why? If it did people couldn't share their maps or posts their maps. This would kill AEM as they would have to offer tech support and anyone that has tried to get tech support knows it is tough getting through to them. I will NOT do tech support for the AEM EMS unless you have bought the EMS from us or are going to pay me for the support. I have looked at a lot of maps and gave opinions of them but will not adjust any free.
In my opinion there are only a few true excellent EMS tuners for the EVO. If you come to me and tell me your story and it goes something like this, "I have been to this tuner and that tuner and this buddy and that buddy with my EMS." Then what you will get from me is the absolute best running EVO............with the map you currently have in the car. What I won't do is install one of MY maps that have everything I know in it. Why? Well because this type of guy is going to pass it around and I have too much time invested in my tuning to let that happen.
Being an AEM certified tuner is a J O K E. I see a bunch of those maps from these certified tuners. My advice it go to someone who has somoe real results.
This bring me to the reflashes. The flashing software that has been used up to know is all extremely expensive and the reason I didn't buy it. Besides that Al does a great job, him and I are friends and we work well together. I do not see it as fair that with this huge financial investment he has made that people can now just steal his hard work and pass it around.
If you want to tune your own car then by all means please do that. Tuning is one of the favorite things I do. BUT, if you want to tune your own car then buy this new cable and YOU tune your car. Don't steal someone else's work. That's not tuning, it is stealing. You want a map from another tuner? Contact that tuner and buy a map from him and install it. Anything else is stealing, period. Nobody likes a thief.
In my opinion there are only a few true excellent EMS tuners for the EVO. If you come to me and tell me your story and it goes something like this, "I have been to this tuner and that tuner and this buddy and that buddy with my EMS." Then what you will get from me is the absolute best running EVO............with the map you currently have in the car. What I won't do is install one of MY maps that have everything I know in it. Why? Well because this type of guy is going to pass it around and I have too much time invested in my tuning to let that happen.
Being an AEM certified tuner is a J O K E. I see a bunch of those maps from these certified tuners. My advice it go to someone who has somoe real results.
This bring me to the reflashes. The flashing software that has been used up to know is all extremely expensive and the reason I didn't buy it. Besides that Al does a great job, him and I are friends and we work well together. I do not see it as fair that with this huge financial investment he has made that people can now just steal his hard work and pass it around.
If you want to tune your own car then by all means please do that. Tuning is one of the favorite things I do. BUT, if you want to tune your own car then buy this new cable and YOU tune your car. Don't steal someone else's work. That's not tuning, it is stealing. You want a map from another tuner? Contact that tuner and buy a map from him and install it. Anything else is stealing, period. Nobody likes a thief.
Al, David, everyone, thanks for all the discussion. I bet most tuners would be in general agreement with what has been said. You need to run a business. We need to be sure we are getting the appropriate maps. Al's new $50 flash through email program is a great idea - kind of like the database model I talked about earlier, except he still retains control of distributing the appropriate map for the appropriate car rather than having the customer try to figure out which one is right. 
I see the administration's point. I think the majority of the people who are going to be reflashing their own cars and discussing tuning ideas on the forums are people who are doing their own tuning anyway.
And on the legal issue, I don't think it even matters if it is legal or not legal to redistribute a tuners work. Even if it is legal to openly distribute a tuner's work - I feel it is still morally questionable. Tuners shouldn't have to go through legal routes to protect their work, but unfortunately in today's society there seem to be more and more opportunistic, morally weak people who will take advantage of any situation they can. Hopefully we don't have any of those folks in our EVOm community, but you never know. It is probably a good idea for tuners to go through the steps to protect their work. Some of you have experience with trusting people or companies to do the right thing . . . and they don't necessarily do that.
EVOlutionary
I see the administration's point. I think the majority of the people who are going to be reflashing their own cars and discussing tuning ideas on the forums are people who are doing their own tuning anyway.
And on the legal issue, I don't think it even matters if it is legal or not legal to redistribute a tuners work. Even if it is legal to openly distribute a tuner's work - I feel it is still morally questionable. Tuners shouldn't have to go through legal routes to protect their work, but unfortunately in today's society there seem to be more and more opportunistic, morally weak people who will take advantage of any situation they can. Hopefully we don't have any of those folks in our EVOm community, but you never know. It is probably a good idea for tuners to go through the steps to protect their work. Some of you have experience with trusting people or companies to do the right thing . . . and they don't necessarily do that.
EVOlutionary
Originally Posted by strikethree
A copyright lawyer?
strike
strike
I think injure, but I dont really know. Also, even if he was a injure lawyer, he knows about law and knows to talk to a copyright lawyer, if he doesn't know bout that type of law.
LIke EVOlutionary said, this is a great discussion. I believe that Al and other tuners shouldn't have to protect their work. I plan to buy maps, maybe even multiple maps, and maybe adjust them a little, if needed. I WILL NOT distribute any tuners map ever.
With that said, I would like to say this, I download every CD and movie I watch/listen.
Tuner maps and MP3s and AVIs are very different. I see nothing wrong with downloading EMINEMs new album because he's already gonna make way to much money and if I wanted to I could turn on the radio and listen to it for free. If I really like an artist, I go to their show or concert and SUPPORT them.
Tuning is a service and should be treat as such. Meaning you pay for service to your car, you pay for your carpet to be cleaned, So you pay for maps.
With that said, I would like to say this, I download every CD and movie I watch/listen.
Tuner maps and MP3s and AVIs are very different. I see nothing wrong with downloading EMINEMs new album because he's already gonna make way to much money and if I wanted to I could turn on the radio and listen to it for free. If I really like an artist, I go to their show or concert and SUPPORT them.
Tuning is a service and should be treat as such. Meaning you pay for service to your car, you pay for your carpet to be cleaned, So you pay for maps.
Last edited by Evo_Jay; May 20, 2006 at 04:02 PM.
I think this was all going to happen it time anyways. I mean back in the day you could get a mugen ecu for a civic for like 600bucks. Then the generic chips that did the same thing to your stock ecu (kinda like a flash) were sold on ebay. Now you can pick up any honda tune from any vender: turbo xs, mugen, mines, or any other shop. I did not hear any problems with this. Also tuners would setup hondata's with there custom dyno tunes for the honda crowd. Then there boy would buy the same mods and just copy the chip. its been going on for years. And I honestly it was never known as a problem in honda land. I see how its kinda not right, but its just the way it will be soon. Honestly im just waiting for the guy to do the evo site where you just click the mods you have and location you live (for altitude reasons) and bam it gives you a link to download a tune. I wouldent be suprised if someone is not allready doing this. I know people will say "well all cars are to the same", and this is true. But with a wideband, this software, and a good base map that matches your mods it wont be hard to make perfect for your car. Dynoflash did great work for me on my car, and I am very satisfied with the results. I dont plan to use this stuff on my car yet as for now im satisfied on the curent state of my car. All prior tuning is a sinking ship. Sure theres the super high hp guys that want every pony they can have and will pay a pro tuner, just as i did with my honda even though i owned all the tuning stuff my self. But for the normal everyday guy, a laptop, wideband and this software is the way its going to go for mainstream evo owners.
Originally Posted by Evo_Kid
LIke EVOlutionary said, this is a great discussion. I believe that Al and other tuners shouldn't have to protect their work. I plan to buy maps, maybe even multiple maps, and maybe adjust them a little, if needed. I WILL NOT distribute any tuners map ever.
With that said, I would like to say this, I download every CD and movie I watch/listen.
Tuner maps and MP3s and AVIs are very different. I see nothing wrong with downloading EMINEMs new album because he's already gonna make way to much money and if I wanted to I could turn on the radio and listen to it for free.
Tuning is a service and should be treat as such. Meaning you pay for service to your car, you pay for your carpet to be cleaned, So you pay for maps.
With that said, I would like to say this, I download every CD and movie I watch/listen.
Tuner maps and MP3s and AVIs are very different. I see nothing wrong with downloading EMINEMs new album because he's already gonna make way to much money and if I wanted to I could turn on the radio and listen to it for free.
Tuning is a service and should be treat as such. Meaning you pay for service to your car, you pay for your carpet to be cleaned, So you pay for maps.
Evolving Member
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Joined: Jul 2005
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From: In Hell, but making my way out
If your car is custom tuned or flashed, the tune belongs to you. Tunes cannot be copyrighted (trust me I do copyright work for my company), only the software that is used to tune can be coprighted unless it is a free hexeditor or any free software commonly used in many things. If the tune was copyrighted some how which with a enough money and power you could probably copyright the custom maps(which right now would be a pipe dream), then anything that happened to the car based on the tune would be on the tuner for damages either wholly or partially. Copyrighting maps or tunes would be counter productive for the automotive aftermarket world to a major degree and would be clouded with lawsuits and fights every day. BTW, flashing a factory or OEM computer could be construed as copyright infringment and reverse engineering and be punishable by large fines and jail under "The Digital Millenium Copyright Act" unless you have paid a very large licensing fee from the original software/hardware designer, patent holder. Hacking/reflashing the factory proprietary software/hardware is a direct violation of copyright and patent laws. Need I say more!! So I say, leave it alone and don't get stuff stirred up ( that includes tuners, Mods, enthusiasts alike) we don't need any more problems with this industry. The tuners complaining will ultimatley be shooting themselves in the foot and out of business if they persue this. Respect your tuner and his work is all I have to say. Just my $.02.
Later
Later
Originally Posted by damianhindley
I dont understant you here, How is a movie or music not a service? It entertains you right? Thats a service you pay the artest for. Sure they make way to much money but, thats like saying a Al or buscher make way to much money compaired to a highschool kid who is having trouble making his car payments. Its all about doing what you feel is right. BUt at the end of the day we all know where this is going.
And about what you feel is right, I bet you've downloaded MP3s and such.
Originally Posted by strikethree
There is no grey area. Either the tuner wrote a contract that made sure he/she retained copyright or he/she didn't. There is no point in restricting the flow of information until a tuner contacts you telling you that there is copyright material on the site... but handle it any way you want. I have no personal feelings on the subject, but there are a few cases where I think I might want/need to post maps.
Whether the tuner does or does not copyright the tune, you're still expecting EvoM to take on the hosting of map-sharing. YOU want to sit back and do nothing while Ali and EvoM take the legal risk of opening themselves up to potential lawsuits. You want us to monitor every single map posted and contact the tuner to make sure the map has been posted legally? Or sit back and hope that no one sues?
How many companies would find out their product is being ripped off and then send a kind note asking the forum to remove the product? And they wouldn't mind losing $xxx in the meantime?