View Poll Results: Which Car would win around a semi challenging obstical course in snow/ice?
Voters: 15. You may not vote on this poll
Tire shoot out
Newbie
Joined: Dec 2009
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From: Toronto
Since this poll is about on a track/course, I would probably take the Ralliart.
But on the regular streets, I'll take the FWD, snow-tire equipped Lancer. =P
Of course... while I'm changing the stipulations, I'll take the Evo with snow tires over the Lancer then. >.>
But on the regular streets, I'll take the FWD, snow-tire equipped Lancer. =P
Of course... while I'm changing the stipulations, I'll take the Evo with snow tires over the Lancer then. >.>
Newbie
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 52
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From: Toronto, Canada
lol.
Don't let AWD give you a false sense of security. They only provide extra traction while accelerating, not while you're braking or cornering. AWD cars tend to plow hard into corners if the balance of the car was not neutralized before entering the turn.
I'd take a RWD in the snow before taking my AWD in the snow anyday.
Oversteer is much more controllable then understeer.
Don't let AWD give you a false sense of security. They only provide extra traction while accelerating, not while you're braking or cornering. AWD cars tend to plow hard into corners if the balance of the car was not neutralized before entering the turn.
I'd take a RWD in the snow before taking my AWD in the snow anyday.
Oversteer is much more controllable then understeer.
if AWD does not improve cornering capability, then theoretically speaking an evo with its AWD, yaw control and all that fancy ish would be same when cornering as an evo with say, a FWD drive train (with other factors remaining the same, i.e. tires, driver etc) . For some reason I cannot imagine this to be so.
WoW you mentioned AWD can "provide extra traction while accelerating"; if I were to accelerate mid-way through corner, would this not provide me with an advantage over a vehicle which is non AWD (regardless of how marginal this advantage is?)
im no automotive engineer but i dont agree with what you guys are saying
if AWD does not improve cornering capability, then theoretically speaking an evo with its AWD, yaw control and all that fancy ish would be same when cornering as an evo with say, a FWD drive train (with other factors remaining the same, i.e. tires, driver etc) . For some reason I cannot imagine this to be so.
WoW you mentioned AWD can "provide extra traction while accelerating"; if I were to accelerate mid-way through corner, would this not provide me with an advantage over a vehicle which is non AWD (regardless of how marginal this advantage is?)
if AWD does not improve cornering capability, then theoretically speaking an evo with its AWD, yaw control and all that fancy ish would be same when cornering as an evo with say, a FWD drive train (with other factors remaining the same, i.e. tires, driver etc) . For some reason I cannot imagine this to be so.
WoW you mentioned AWD can "provide extra traction while accelerating"; if I were to accelerate mid-way through corner, would this not provide me with an advantage over a vehicle which is non AWD (regardless of how marginal this advantage is?)
afaik, in order to brake or to corner you need friction. The friction is between the road surface and the tires. For a FWD car and an AWD, they both have 4 wheels. So given the hypothetical situation where they have the exact same tires, same weight, etc - they will have the same cornering ability and braking ability because they will have the same amount of friction.
As WoW mentioned, the benefit for AWD is for accelerating as you four wheels accelerating you and contacting the ground. You have greater friction between 4 wheels vs 2 wheels.
So I guess if you say accelerating through a corner.. AWD will give you the ability to accelerate better through the turn... you aren't really at an advantage interms of handling through the corner. So I mean you can accelerate through a corner, but theres a limit to your ability to corner and that lies in your tires.. and going over the limit leads to understeer. so if you have more grip through those corners you can up the threshold (the speed you can go through them), so in this case you might not even have an advantage, you might just be able to spin your wheels and understeer. I'd say tires are a huge bottleneck.
Ralliart, because the Evo comes equipped with WIDER (never good in snow) Yokohama ADVAN summer-only tires. So while the RA has crappy equipped Dunlop all-seasons, they are still all-season, which will have a slight advantage over the Evo's tires.
Bear in mind as well, that the greater horsepower and torque of the Evo might also cause it to break traction sooner. As well, the Ralliart is an Evo IX AWD system, so it's not like it is crap. Only lacks AYC, which does have its advantages in snow, but then again, crappy tires (for the conditions) are still crappy tires.
Bear in mind as well, that the greater horsepower and torque of the Evo might also cause it to break traction sooner. As well, the Ralliart is an Evo IX AWD system, so it's not like it is crap. Only lacks AYC, which does have its advantages in snow, but then again, crappy tires (for the conditions) are still crappy tires.
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Joined: Jul 2009
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From: Toronto
im no automotive engineer but i dont agree with what you guys are saying
if AWD does not improve cornering capability, then theoretically speaking an evo with its AWD, yaw control and all that fancy ish would be same when cornering as an evo with say, a FWD drive train (with other factors remaining the same, i.e. tires, driver etc) . For some reason I cannot imagine this to be so.
WoW you mentioned AWD can "provide extra traction while accelerating"; if I were to accelerate mid-way through corner, would this not provide me with an advantage over a vehicle which is non AWD (regardless of how marginal this advantage is?)
if AWD does not improve cornering capability, then theoretically speaking an evo with its AWD, yaw control and all that fancy ish would be same when cornering as an evo with say, a FWD drive train (with other factors remaining the same, i.e. tires, driver etc) . For some reason I cannot imagine this to be so.
WoW you mentioned AWD can "provide extra traction while accelerating"; if I were to accelerate mid-way through corner, would this not provide me with an advantage over a vehicle which is non AWD (regardless of how marginal this advantage is?)
AWD doesn't help while cornering or breaking. There is nothing you can do about understeer other then to be proactive and slow down. RWD on the other hand will inherently oversteer, but can be easily controlled by varying the throttle input and steering angle.
AWD will allow you to apply power out of corners sooner then a FWD or RWD car, and that is where the "provide extra traction while accelerating" comes in.
I'm not sure if you have any track time in different platforms, but it is a totally different driving style and the lines are completely different between AWD and RWD cars. That being said, The objective of drving fast is to have the car pointed in a direction where the driver can apply the most power for the longest time. In other words, to be fast means spending the most time possible going "straight".
You'll never get oversteer with an AWD car unless you have a [crazy] excess amount of power or extremely [crappy] tires. Oversteer is what i could consider a good cornering behaviour for a car as it can be corrected and controlled to the driver's liking. With understeer, you're just along for the ride... = FAIL. The best i can ever hope for with my AWD is to have a neutral handling chassis, and currently still struggles to reach that even with everything i've done it... Not that I'm not having fun with the R6s and r888s on there.
Last edited by WoW; Jan 12, 2010 at 05:35 PM.
Thread Starter
Former Sponsor
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,362
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From: the land between lancer and evo
Frank and Dan from FourStar has weighed in on test proposed and they have a few suggestions for providing consistency to the testing. And have no problem with the driving to ensure a fair test. We have access to an ice track as well.
more updates as they come
more updates as they come
Newbie
Joined: Nov 2009
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From: Toronto
2 WoW and laksman:
Try thinking physics first.... RWD has a velocity vector on the rear, which pushes the car forward.... FWD has the vector at front and pulls the car forward. In both case scenario the other set of the wheels create frictional vector against the direction of the movement. That creates the possible slippage, especially when you corner and the vectors aren't parallel. Now with AWD both front and back create the vectors that pull the car in the same direction and without the opposing vector. Common sence - it's better in cornering and an the road. Plus when you engin break on all wheel drive - you break with 4 tyres not 2......... Again common sence.......
Try thinking physics first.... RWD has a velocity vector on the rear, which pushes the car forward.... FWD has the vector at front and pulls the car forward. In both case scenario the other set of the wheels create frictional vector against the direction of the movement. That creates the possible slippage, especially when you corner and the vectors aren't parallel. Now with AWD both front and back create the vectors that pull the car in the same direction and without the opposing vector. Common sence - it's better in cornering and an the road. Plus when you engin break on all wheel drive - you break with 4 tyres not 2......... Again common sence.......
Thread Starter
Former Sponsor
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,362
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From: the land between lancer and evo
I still think this agruement about AWD is more to do with Technology than anything else. But its also car specific, different cars handle very differently. So its hard to say which powertrain option reigns supreme, there have been arguements in Porsche circles over the 911 AWD or Rear till the cows come home.
Its an interesting debate none the less
Its an interesting debate none the less
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Joined: Jul 2009
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From: Toronto
2 WoW and laksman:
Try thinking physics first.... RWD has a velocity vector on the rear, which pushes the car forward.... FWD has the vector at front and pulls the car forward. In both case scenario the other set of the wheels create frictional vector against the direction of the movement. That creates the possible slippage, especially when you corner and the vectors aren't parallel. Now with AWD both front and back create the vectors that pull the car in the same direction and without the opposing vector. Common sence - it's better in cornering and an the road. Plus when you engin break on all wheel drive - you break with 4 tyres not 2......... Again common sence.......
Try thinking physics first.... RWD has a velocity vector on the rear, which pushes the car forward.... FWD has the vector at front and pulls the car forward. In both case scenario the other set of the wheels create frictional vector against the direction of the movement. That creates the possible slippage, especially when you corner and the vectors aren't parallel. Now with AWD both front and back create the vectors that pull the car in the same direction and without the opposing vector. Common sence - it's better in cornering and an the road. Plus when you engin break on all wheel drive - you break with 4 tyres not 2......... Again common sence.......
Also, you don't need power to the wheels to turn a car. "Again, Common Sense"
sorry.
We were disputing between cornering...
Newbie
Joined: Nov 2009
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From: Toronto
Anyone who took geometry in school - remember vector addition and subtraction..... the answer is there... Don't forget the opposing vector in FWD and RWD.
About cornering - come to etobicoke. I have a friend on BMW. we can compare it on slow speeds on snow. And if I remember correctly - cornering is the best and quickest way to go through the corner, which means in one of the techniques the driver starts accelerating half way through the corner. In other one - power slide through the whole corner. just letting the car go through the corner without speed - it's not cornering and does not depends on the car. It depends only on tyre grip. I would draw the vectors and post them here but have to much work to do(((
About cornering - come to etobicoke. I have a friend on BMW. we can compare it on slow speeds on snow. And if I remember correctly - cornering is the best and quickest way to go through the corner, which means in one of the techniques the driver starts accelerating half way through the corner. In other one - power slide through the whole corner. just letting the car go through the corner without speed - it's not cornering and does not depends on the car. It depends only on tyre grip. I would draw the vectors and post them here but have to much work to do(((
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Joined: Jul 2009
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From: Toronto
Anyone who took geometry in school - remember vector addition and subtraction..... the answer is there... Don't forget the opposing vector in FWD and RWD.
About cornering - come to etobicoke. I have a friend on BMW. we can compare it on slow speeds on snow. And if I remember correctly - cornering is the best and quickest way to go through the corner, which means in one of the techniques the driver starts accelerating half way through the corner. In other one - power slide through the whole corner. just letting the car go through the corner without speed - it's not cornering and does not depends on the car. It depends only on tyre grip. I would draw the vectors and post them here but have to much work to do(((
About cornering - come to etobicoke. I have a friend on BMW. we can compare it on slow speeds on snow. And if I remember correctly - cornering is the best and quickest way to go through the corner, which means in one of the techniques the driver starts accelerating half way through the corner. In other one - power slide through the whole corner. just letting the car go through the corner without speed - it's not cornering and does not depends on the car. It depends only on tyre grip. I would draw the vectors and post them here but have to much work to do(((
I dont need go go to etobicoke, i have a RWD cars myself. Will AWD car can pull more lateral Gs then my RWD? Will the AWD have a tighter turning radius? How efficiently will you have gotten thru the corner? It's a completely unfair comparison as there is way too many variables.
It's not just a matter of speed, radius or driver technique.
Sure you can accelerating earlier thru the corner in a AWD, but how wide would the radius of the turn be? How much energy did you waste scrubbing?
If you think cornering without power has nothing to do with the car and is only based on tires, then you are terribly misinformed. Sounds like something that some ricer who has a huge 11k tach on a 120whp civic would say.
AWD flawed, but has it's own set of advantages, cornering is not one of them. The Added weight doesn't help it one bit during turn-in, LSDs front and rear actually tries to keep the car in the straight line more then anything.
Like i said, Oversteer can be controlled by the driver, understeer can't.
Take your car out onto the track and see just how well your car stacks up to your theory.
Evolving Member
Joined: May 2009
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From: Toronto
the EVO is like a toboggan in ice/snow with the stock Advan's
anything below 10 degree's and the compound on the Advan's are hard like hockey pucks
put some decent winter wheels / rims on the evo ( i have blizzacks at the moment) and the evo
is like a snowmobile however!
anything below 10 degree's and the compound on the Advan's are hard like hockey pucks
put some decent winter wheels / rims on the evo ( i have blizzacks at the moment) and the evo
is like a snowmobile however!