Pre Turbo Injection
Aug 9, 2007, 10:46 AM
#1
Evolved Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (17)
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: NNJ
Posts: 2,544
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pre Turbo Injection
I was bored at work today and I started reading through the aquamist board about pre turbo injection. I came across some good info but there is so much stuff out there that I am not sure what to make of it all.
To those who are knowledgeable in the area, what is your opinion of pre turbo W/I.
A couple basic points I have read -
A stock evo turbo would be a great candidate for pre turbo injection as it is a relatively small turbo and people who run it at 25psi are usually generating a lot of heat from the turbo. Pre turbo injection would really help to allow the stock turbo to be more efficient.
You can use just water but you may quickly saturate the air with maximum humidity and might to better to use several fluids like water and meth.
You want the nozzle to atomize very well and have fluid droplets as small as 40 microns each.
You also want the nozzle to be pointed towards the center of the turbo. (does any one know how far away it should be)
I would be interested in giving this a try but I am not sure of how to really create a practical setup.
I was thinking of using an aquamist .3mm or .4mm nozzle and spraying 50/50 water/meth
I would probably need to make one of those nozzle holders which center the nozzle inside the pipe with the water flow going in the same direction as the air (like the “Mercedes” symbols that Abner used.
Please post your idea’s and help to possibly set up pre turbo injection for an Evo
To those who are knowledgeable in the area, what is your opinion of pre turbo W/I.
A couple basic points I have read -
A stock evo turbo would be a great candidate for pre turbo injection as it is a relatively small turbo and people who run it at 25psi are usually generating a lot of heat from the turbo. Pre turbo injection would really help to allow the stock turbo to be more efficient.
You can use just water but you may quickly saturate the air with maximum humidity and might to better to use several fluids like water and meth.
You want the nozzle to atomize very well and have fluid droplets as small as 40 microns each.
You also want the nozzle to be pointed towards the center of the turbo. (does any one know how far away it should be)
I would be interested in giving this a try but I am not sure of how to really create a practical setup.
I was thinking of using an aquamist .3mm or .4mm nozzle and spraying 50/50 water/meth
I would probably need to make one of those nozzle holders which center the nozzle inside the pipe with the water flow going in the same direction as the air (like the “Mercedes” symbols that Abner used.
Please post your idea’s and help to possibly set up pre turbo injection for an Evo
Aug 9, 2007, 11:01 AM
#3
Evolved Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (17)
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: NNJ
Posts: 2,544
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How did those mounts work?
Did they sit in the groove created by the beed roller and then where just held into place with a snap ring?
I have a buschur MAF pipe which has a beed rolled in the end of it. The beed sits about 1" from the tip of the compressor wheel. Do you think one of those axial mounts could be made for the larger diameter ( i think 3.5") MAF pipe?
Did they sit in the groove created by the beed roller and then where just held into place with a snap ring?
I have a buschur MAF pipe which has a beed rolled in the end of it. The beed sits about 1" from the tip of the compressor wheel. Do you think one of those axial mounts could be made for the larger diameter ( i think 3.5") MAF pipe?
Aug 9, 2007, 11:05 AM
#4
Evolved Member
iTrader: (42)
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: St. Charles, IL
Posts: 2,502
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is a guy with an evo on the aquamist forums who did try pre turbo injection. He took it off because he said he couldn't measure a difference. He also mentioned he might try it again in the future. I believe like abner said it was evotio
Aug 9, 2007, 11:11 AM
#5
Evolved Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (17)
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: NNJ
Posts: 2,544
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I just found and read EvoTio's thread.
Personally I think he saw no gain because he was only at 21 psi, well within the efficiency of the stock turbo. I think pre turbo only help when the turbo is operating outside its efficiency range.
He said his nozzle was mounted about 30mm from the compressor wheel. This is good to hear as that is about where I would be able to mount a nozzle as well.
He is also running .3mm which is what I was thinking of running as well.
Sounds like this might be fairly easy to set up and get going since I already have the hole HFS-5 already in place.
Personally I think he saw no gain because he was only at 21 psi, well within the efficiency of the stock turbo. I think pre turbo only help when the turbo is operating outside its efficiency range.
He said his nozzle was mounted about 30mm from the compressor wheel. This is good to hear as that is about where I would be able to mount a nozzle as well.
He is also running .3mm which is what I was thinking of running as well.
Sounds like this might be fairly easy to set up and get going since I already have the hole HFS-5 already in place.
Aug 9, 2007, 11:34 AM
#6
Evolved Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (17)
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: NNJ
Posts: 2,544
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Found some info on the boards again, this is just striaght up awesome
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=559
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=559
Trending Topics
Aug 9, 2007, 07:59 PM
#9
I was following the pre-compressor injection concept back from 2004 when this Aquamist thread started http://www.aquamist.co.uk/phpBB2/vie...er=asc&start=0.
I decided to try it on my 03 Evo. The install went pretty smooth.
I tested my pre-comp set up at the drag strip with a .3mm pre-compressor nozzle mounted on a custom axial mount. The .3mm nozzle that I’m using is an unreleased nozzle that Richard supplied me to experiment with. It has an internal progressive spring loaded valve so it opens about 2-3 psi later than my primary post intercooler nozzle. Unfortunately I fell off 3-4 tenths and about 4-5 MPH with the pre-comp injection activated. The car felt like it was getting too much water/alcohol injected. The boost spiked to about 23 PSI and tapered down to 18 PSI by red line. This was at a track that was almost at the 2700 foot level. Once I disconnected the pre-comp nozzle, the car responded back to normal. I figured that a little .3mm nozzle wouldn't make a big difference, but apparently it did. I did go back later and upped the boost to about a 25-26 spike, but the boost still tapered to 18 PSI. Same results.
I ended up disconnecting the pre-comp injection for the time being. I'm not going to give up just yet. I just don't know what direction to take at this point. I guess tuning on a dyno may help some, but I don't have the extra $ at the moment to spend on dyno time.
There is still some debate on when to start the pre comp injection. The latest talk is that you have to start pre-comp injecting only when the turbo is starting to run out if it's efficiency range. Unfortunately my Aquamist 2D does not allow me to start my pre-comp injecting at a much higher boost level. That would be my next step if I could do it. Meanwhile I'll keep researching.
I decided to try it on my 03 Evo. The install went pretty smooth.
I tested my pre-comp set up at the drag strip with a .3mm pre-compressor nozzle mounted on a custom axial mount. The .3mm nozzle that I’m using is an unreleased nozzle that Richard supplied me to experiment with. It has an internal progressive spring loaded valve so it opens about 2-3 psi later than my primary post intercooler nozzle. Unfortunately I fell off 3-4 tenths and about 4-5 MPH with the pre-comp injection activated. The car felt like it was getting too much water/alcohol injected. The boost spiked to about 23 PSI and tapered down to 18 PSI by red line. This was at a track that was almost at the 2700 foot level. Once I disconnected the pre-comp nozzle, the car responded back to normal. I figured that a little .3mm nozzle wouldn't make a big difference, but apparently it did. I did go back later and upped the boost to about a 25-26 spike, but the boost still tapered to 18 PSI. Same results.
I ended up disconnecting the pre-comp injection for the time being. I'm not going to give up just yet. I just don't know what direction to take at this point. I guess tuning on a dyno may help some, but I don't have the extra $ at the moment to spend on dyno time.
There is still some debate on when to start the pre comp injection. The latest talk is that you have to start pre-comp injecting only when the turbo is starting to run out if it's efficiency range. Unfortunately my Aquamist 2D does not allow me to start my pre-comp injecting at a much higher boost level. That would be my next step if I could do it. Meanwhile I'll keep researching.
Aug 10, 2007, 05:31 AM
#10
Evolved Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (17)
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: NNJ
Posts: 2,544
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
EvoTio - thank you very much for the post.
I am very surprised with your results. 4-5 MPH is a HUGE loss.
Also you said you tried it with higher boost and it still did not work which puzzles me even more since it seems like you would really be out of the effeciency of the turbo at that point. Was this on stock turbo?
From reading your post I have decided that I still want to do pre turbo injection but that it will require more testing to make sure it is really helping.
I am going to get my car tuned and runing well before going to the track to get some baseline pulls.
Then I can install pre turbo injection and adjust my tune before returning to the track.
Do you remember the outside diamater of the axial mount you used?
I am wondering if it would work with aftermarket intake pipes aswell as stock.
I am very surprised with your results. 4-5 MPH is a HUGE loss.
Also you said you tried it with higher boost and it still did not work which puzzles me even more since it seems like you would really be out of the effeciency of the turbo at that point. Was this on stock turbo?
From reading your post I have decided that I still want to do pre turbo injection but that it will require more testing to make sure it is really helping.
I am going to get my car tuned and runing well before going to the track to get some baseline pulls.
Then I can install pre turbo injection and adjust my tune before returning to the track.
Do you remember the outside diamater of the axial mount you used?
I am wondering if it would work with aftermarket intake pipes aswell as stock.
Aug 10, 2007, 08:02 AM
#11
EvoTio - thank you very much for the post.
I am very surprised with your results. 4-5 MPH is a HUGE loss.
Also you said you tried it with higher boost and it still did not work which puzzles me even more since it seems like you would really be out of the effeciency of the turbo at that point. Was this on stock turbo?
From reading your post I have decided that I still want to do pre turbo injection but that it will require more testing to make sure it is really helping.
I am going to get my car tuned and runing well before going to the track to get some baseline pulls.
Then I can install pre turbo injection and adjust my tune before returning to the track.
Do you remember the outside diamater of the axial mount you used?
I am wondering if it would work with aftermarket intake pipes aswell as stock.
I am very surprised with your results. 4-5 MPH is a HUGE loss.
Also you said you tried it with higher boost and it still did not work which puzzles me even more since it seems like you would really be out of the effeciency of the turbo at that point. Was this on stock turbo?
From reading your post I have decided that I still want to do pre turbo injection but that it will require more testing to make sure it is really helping.
I am going to get my car tuned and runing well before going to the track to get some baseline pulls.
Then I can install pre turbo injection and adjust my tune before returning to the track.
Do you remember the outside diamater of the axial mount you used?
I am wondering if it would work with aftermarket intake pipes aswell as stock.
Pre-turbo injection has been proven to work, but it will take somewhat of a balancing act between the pre-comp nozzle and your post intercooler nozzle. Here's another article that could give you some information on PTI: http://www.max-boost.co.uk/max-boost/intake/WI.htm. As I said before the actual turn on point of the pre-comp nozzle will be a important factor. I am still willing to experiment, but unfortunaltely they closed down my favorite dragstrip for good. I was able to do a lot of runs and was able to change different settings between runs. It will would be nice to get some feed back from somebody else trying PTI out. Keep me posted
.
Aug 10, 2007, 01:37 PM
#12
Evolved Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (17)
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: NNJ
Posts: 2,544
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wow that is a great link, tons of info compiled of the aquamist boards.
Although I think that a lot of that info may no longer apply or at least needs to be updated.
With systems like the HFS-5 which flow a small amount of water at low RPM/boost levels, I don’t think the issues of decreasing IC efficiency at low trigger points is as relevant. I also don’t think you would increase EGT's due to too much water at low fuel levels causing a slow flame front.
How progressive is the 2d system?
What was your trigger point?
I am having a bit of trouble following the information on that site though because a lot of the discussion does not seem to be differentiated between pre turbo and post IC injection. It is difficult to know which type of injection he is talking about throughout the website.
One thing I have definitely learned is all the theory in the world will probably not be able to predict how pre turbo W/I will react on each setup. I think careful testing at each level is required.
Although I think that a lot of that info may no longer apply or at least needs to be updated.
With systems like the HFS-5 which flow a small amount of water at low RPM/boost levels, I don’t think the issues of decreasing IC efficiency at low trigger points is as relevant. I also don’t think you would increase EGT's due to too much water at low fuel levels causing a slow flame front.
How progressive is the 2d system?
What was your trigger point?
I am having a bit of trouble following the information on that site though because a lot of the discussion does not seem to be differentiated between pre turbo and post IC injection. It is difficult to know which type of injection he is talking about throughout the website.
One thing I have definitely learned is all the theory in the world will probably not be able to predict how pre turbo W/I will react on each setup. I think careful testing at each level is required.
Aug 10, 2007, 01:39 PM
#13
Evolved Member
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Kingdom of Saudi Arabia
Posts: 3,456
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was following the pre-compressor injection concept back from 2004 when this Aquamist thread started http://www.aquamist.co.uk/phpBB2/vie...er=asc&start=0.
I decided to try it on my 03 Evo. The install went pretty smooth.
I tested my pre-comp set up at the drag strip with a .3mm pre-compressor nozzle mounted on a custom axial mount. The .3mm nozzle that I’m using is an unreleased nozzle that Richard supplied me to experiment with. It has an internal progressive spring loaded valve so it opens about 2-3 psi later than my primary post intercooler nozzle. Unfortunately I fell off 3-4 tenths and about 4-5 MPH with the pre-comp injection activated. The car felt like it was getting too much water/alcohol injected. The boost spiked to about 23 PSI and tapered down to 18 PSI by red line. This was at a track that was almost at the 2700 foot level. Once I disconnected the pre-comp nozzle, the car responded back to normal. I figured that a little .3mm nozzle wouldn't make a big difference, but apparently it did. I did go back later and upped the boost to about a 25-26 spike, but the boost still tapered to 18 PSI. Same results.
I ended up disconnecting the pre-comp injection for the time being. I'm not going to give up just yet. I just don't know what direction to take at this point. I guess tuning on a dyno may help some, but I don't have the extra $ at the moment to spend on dyno time.
There is still some debate on when to start the pre comp injection. The latest talk is that you have to start pre-comp injecting only when the turbo is starting to run out if it's efficiency range. Unfortunately my Aquamist 2D does not allow me to start my pre-comp injecting at a much higher boost level. That would be my next step if I could do it. Meanwhile I'll keep researching.
I decided to try it on my 03 Evo. The install went pretty smooth.
I tested my pre-comp set up at the drag strip with a .3mm pre-compressor nozzle mounted on a custom axial mount. The .3mm nozzle that I’m using is an unreleased nozzle that Richard supplied me to experiment with. It has an internal progressive spring loaded valve so it opens about 2-3 psi later than my primary post intercooler nozzle. Unfortunately I fell off 3-4 tenths and about 4-5 MPH with the pre-comp injection activated. The car felt like it was getting too much water/alcohol injected. The boost spiked to about 23 PSI and tapered down to 18 PSI by red line. This was at a track that was almost at the 2700 foot level. Once I disconnected the pre-comp nozzle, the car responded back to normal. I figured that a little .3mm nozzle wouldn't make a big difference, but apparently it did. I did go back later and upped the boost to about a 25-26 spike, but the boost still tapered to 18 PSI. Same results.
I ended up disconnecting the pre-comp injection for the time being. I'm not going to give up just yet. I just don't know what direction to take at this point. I guess tuning on a dyno may help some, but I don't have the extra $ at the moment to spend on dyno time.
There is still some debate on when to start the pre comp injection. The latest talk is that you have to start pre-comp injecting only when the turbo is starting to run out if it's efficiency range. Unfortunately my Aquamist 2D does not allow me to start my pre-comp injecting at a much higher boost level. That would be my next step if I could do it. Meanwhile I'll keep researching.
Aug 10, 2007, 07:34 PM
#14
Wow that is a great link, tons of info compiled of the aquamist boards.
Although I think that a lot of that info may no longer apply or at least needs to be updated.
With systems like the HFS-5 which flow a small amount of water at low RPM/boost levels, I don’t think the issues of decreasing IC efficiency at low trigger points is as relevant. I also don’t think you would increase EGT's due to too much water at low fuel levels causing a slow flame front.
How progressive is the 2d system?
What was your trigger point?
I am having a bit of trouble following the information on that site though because a lot of the discussion does not seem to be differentiated between pre turbo and post IC injection. It is difficult to know which type of injection he is talking about throughout the website.
One thing I have definitely learned is all the theory in the world will probably not be able to predict how pre turbo W/I will react on each setup. I think careful testing at each level is required.
Although I think that a lot of that info may no longer apply or at least needs to be updated.
With systems like the HFS-5 which flow a small amount of water at low RPM/boost levels, I don’t think the issues of decreasing IC efficiency at low trigger points is as relevant. I also don’t think you would increase EGT's due to too much water at low fuel levels causing a slow flame front.
How progressive is the 2d system?
What was your trigger point?
I am having a bit of trouble following the information on that site though because a lot of the discussion does not seem to be differentiated between pre turbo and post IC injection. It is difficult to know which type of injection he is talking about throughout the website.
One thing I have definitely learned is all the theory in the world will probably not be able to predict how pre turbo W/I will react on each setup. I think careful testing at each level is required.
.As for what works on paper vs real life, it's always going to be different in some way.
