Hey guys, I've done a lot of reading over the last few hours and answered a lot of my questions, but need a few more questions answers as well as some suggestions.

My mods are in my sig, but with meth now....

im running the SMC kit, with the M10 nozzle with a 50/50 meth to water mix. I want to run roughly 28 -30 psi. I want to know the following :

what start and stop settings do you guys think i should use ?

dip switches on the side for the M10 nozzle ? i bought it used and have no documentation and just want to be sure.

thanks in advance guys for any answers you give me

 

A few ideas

Since your target boost is so high you will want to run the max setting at the max

I like to set the low setting for when the car reaches about 15 psi of boost to start spraying

 

Carlos to the rescue... the SMC dip switch are as follow:

using a V2 progressive controller

Switch setting / Nozzle size

UP-UP #7
DOWN-UP #10
UP-DOWN #15
DOWN-DOWN #5



Bigric, I had the great pleasure to get custom tune by big Al several times, we did extensive dyno runs and custom tune with not just the #7 but also the number #10. Honestly, I would stay with the #7, I vividly recal making the same power with the #7 than with the #10.

Keep in mind I told Al to keep my car in a very conservative set up so that the #7 would give me the better margin of safety. My start point was 14psi on the stock Evo 8 turbo and max at around 20psi or so but it all depends on your targeted boost.

Just for the record and since you mentioned the boost, my car was running 28-30psi on the stock Evo 8 MR turbo.

Additionally I am currently using the same exact set up on my Eclipse, I have a SMC with a number #7 nozzle and running alcohol/and or methanol. I find the number #7 more than plenty for my turbokit. I am running a very safe 10.6-10.8 AFR and I am making good power 400.0whp mustang dyno. My eclipse boost set up starts at 12-14 and I got it at max at around 20psi, I am boosting 24psi max for now..

If you need a step to step detail installation process just pm me, this is my third SMC and I do have 2 full installation process reviews done on the Evo and the Eclipse, you can see it on the link attached on my signature.



I hope that helps some.

Carlos

 

i appreciate your response...

more info,

because i bought the kit used, it didnt come with a nozzle, so i had to order one from SMC with the gauge setup. Should be here tomorrow morning i hope. Since i didnt want to buy a lot of different nozzles, even though they are cheap, i went with the 10 because its in the middle, and if i upgrade to a slightly larger turbo, it wont need to be changed more than likely. With my 20G and injectors and the targeted boost i just wanted to be safe with the amount of meth im actually spraying and i knew 15 was overkill. I also did some searching and a few other people running my setup were using the 10.

what al said somewhat contradicts everything i have read about the stop boost which is why i asked what people are running. I figured since im targetting 28 to 30, i was thinking that setting the stop boost at 26 would be the correct setting. Since the controller only goes to 26 but according to SMC the max setting is actually 28 or 30, setting it to about 24 would be correct. So i guess this is why im looking for clarification. I was also reading that the start boost in order to be spraying by 15 or so which is what i was thinking should be set closer to 10 to 12 because of the delay in spraying due to the nozzle not being full the entire time do to vacuum in the UICP.

I will check out your link as i have a desire for as much knowledge as i can before i actually start tuning the meth. Ive got a different set of cams coming in as well so i need to tune that setup first before getting into the meth.

Anything you can add to help me out i definitely appreciate.

Im not sure what you were referring to as far as detailed step by step installation, was that how to install the kit ? or how to setup everything ? or tuning ? The kit is already installed in the car... it is working, the pump is working, the low level indicator is working. i just havent set the settings yet due to research. I actually installed mine on a switch as well so i can run the meth when i want or my pump gas map. Then i installed a blue led inside my gaugle cluster area to let me know when the pump is on or off to make sure my hi boost setting just doesnt happen to be on while running no meth.


Again, any help you can give me, i really appreciate. thanks

 

alright, day 1 of meth tuning ....

my afr's are coming in at 11.3 at peak to about 11.0 by redline. I havent really started playing with timing yet, its still pretty low id think. i just wanted to get my boost somewhat set and my afr's where i think they should be. My start setting i have about 12 to 14 or so, i may raise that a bit though to what al suggested mainly do the fact that i dont want to drive all day long spraying, but i dont like to grandma drive either.... My max is set at about 26, or on the dial about 24 ish because of what SMC said about 26 being more like 30. Im using the down up setting suggested and my boost is about 27 or so in 1st and 2nd and about 26 through the rest of the gears tapering down to about 23.... i still need to play with the EBC to eat up some of that taper, will work on that tomorrow.

Carlos, i have a ton of questions for you, but i dont want to pick your brain unless you consent lol. I have done a lot of reading lately and im picking a few things, i just want to ask you a few things about tuning targets and what not.

i really appreciate your help.

and FYI, on my logs, im hitting about 319 or 320 load and not falling below 280 on the way to redline.

 

You should let me know on the PM, I have a extra pressure gauge and also a few nozzles laying around but oh well, too late.

The so called "stop" dial is actually a very cdeceptive meaning, it really don't mean that ths pump stops at a preset boost, what it actually means is that the stop dial is set to reach the maximum pump flow at whatever targeted boost you desire.

In your case if you are planning on running 28psi then I would get a start point at around 14psi or so then a max spray at around 18-20psi that way it will full spray from 18-20psi all the way to whatever boost you are running.

As far is the dials, the reason why the dials have only numbersup to 26psi is because no more numbers can be fitted in such small space. I actually called SMC and ask the same question 2 years ago and they told me that the dial actually keeps adjusting beyond 26psi, they just don't have enought space.

The additional LED is something that I have seen in person from another veteran member that has been using methanol kit for nearly 7 years.

Carlos

.

 

No problems, ask me whatever you want(don't ask me what color of underwear I wear though ), just kidding.

I think your boost target and your AFR are coming along. I have had my cars tuned to at around 11AFR max but that is just me, I haven't destroyed any 4G63 engine since 1995 .

Al is d3ad on about his comments, it happened to me as well, if you lowewr the start point too much you will actually loose power and the car will become very slugish in the lower and midrange.

If you are planning of having the 20G then I can see the #10 nozzle being the most appropiate, if you stay with the stock turbo then the #7 is the best choice (m opinion) but keep in mind that it all depends on your set up. TTP injects massive amounts of methanol to run 10 sec and trap 130mph on his stock turbo MR, needless to say he is running some crazy timing and also he has the latest fail safe set up just in case.

Remember, the dip switches set up are always starting from left to right. One more thing and this is just some random info, despite the methanol having more potencial for "cooling effect", the real difference is less than 10% when compared to alcohol, sometimes not even noticeable at the dynos.


Just be carefull with the water because you need much more water to do the job of the methanol plus the water has no energetic value, when injected in huige amounts it can handicap your ignition(weaken the spark).



Carlos

 

explain your last comment please.... i have been mixing it 50/50 heet to distilled water. If you think i should change that mix, just advise me on what you recommend. Im up to try anything that works.

my setup in my sig is correct, minus the cosi cams, those will be in thursday, im just tuning meth on my S1's so the cosi meth tune wont be such a stretch. Im using the m10 nozzle and dont plan on changing that. I will probably end up raising my start to about 15 though... i noticed a difference for sure with it lower. I was looking on the adjustment knob at the little circle on the dial and had that where you suggested, but the part on the flat head with the dark line on it i couldnt see so my settings were way off. Once i adjusted it, the car woke up and she was running great with next to no real timing advance.

PICKING YOUR HEAD QUESTIONS :

1. Target AFR with meth suggestion ?
-------on pump i run 11.5 afr's dropping 11.3 at the lowest by redline. Tune is solid boost 23.5 psi and the timing is mediocre advanced.

2. Im assuming that you will know when to adjust start max settings by how the car feels, and your max setting should be set to your target boost peak correct ?

3. How much timing should i be looking to try and target at Peak and then up top ?
-------- ive heard that up top is where i need to be really trying to push the timing threshold to gain power, peak should be a few points higher but not crazy, what do you think ?

4. Would you suggest running 26 psi and a lot of timing or 28 psi and maybe not quite as much ? i realize tuning is up to the tuner, and theories are different.

5. underwear brand at least ? lol


im sure i have more questions, but we will start there.... id like to take a look at your map, and i will send you mine so you can see what im trying to run

 

The issue with the water that I was mentioning happened to a few people before. It happened when they were using more water percentage in large amount thus affecting the spark within the combistion chambers(missfiring big time).

The solution has been dimishing the amount of water and or adding a ignition box(HKS DLI, Hypersun, etc) but you shouldn't have any issues because I also ran 50/50 at one point and never had a issue.

I am very confident about you, it seems like you are clearly understanding the pros and cons of each little detail I am giving you, as you can see raising the start point gives you a lesser sluggish car.

As much as I want to help you with the tune, I am afarid I am not going to be able to help much, I would have to see the AFR ratios, timing map and see if the car knocks or not, use your common sense. I would suggest to aim for a richer AFR to get yourself some margin of safety.

Are you going to eventually tune at the dyno? The pressure should be at around 110psi when spraying. In referenec to your last comment, remember one thing I actuall lost power and torque by increasing the boost too much.

In one of my custom dyno tunes with Al, my car(Evo 8 MR) was actually loosing power beyond 28psi, it was putting too much hot air and it was absolutely running out of its eficiency. I made ony 3whp less running at 26psi but I guarantie you I was much safer at 26psi. That is why I am suggesting going to the dyno and running the car and see how it acts.

Carlos

 

im tuning her on the dyno saturday

i too have experienced in cars i was tuning running higher boost sometimes gives you a diminished result. 26 is safe, i think 28 on a 20G is still fine, but i think 30 is that diminishing point... i will leave her how she is for now, and adjust the tune and raise boost as the last step to see if im right or wrong... i think ultimately though, the boost i am running now will be what im staying with.

As far as looking at my tune... i would send you a before and after meth map, and let you see where i ended up and then you can compare them to your before and after. Just gives you a ballpark idea. I could send you logs too if you'd like, but i dont need you to tune my car, im pretty good at that part, just new to tuning meth and im trying to not learn the hard way if i can help it. lol.

As far as my mix goes, im pretty **** about making sure what i put in it with water i match with meth and if im heavy, its on the meth side, not water. The heet seems to work pretty well. I want to mix it with windshield washer concentrate but cant seem to find anything other then the premixed stuff... so i guess plain distilled water will work for now. Just not the pretty color lol.

so questions...

1. How much timing did you finally end up adding up top ?

2. at peak ?

My AFR's id like to stay around 11.3 to 11.0, but no leaner. I figure with weather changing, in the morning and at night it will lean out a hair and mid day it will richen up some, so im in a good little ballpark. Just need to log my afr's so i know exactly where i am sitting and can fine tune it. I just want to try to get the timing decently advanced while not seeing any knock. Im getting the hang of it as far as the meth, its just different from pump because of how strong the boost hits and where on the axis... its not subtle at all.

 

u wanna start at 10 and full spray by 18

you'll have a nice trq spike ...... u dont want to set it to max like Al said because you taper less than 26 pounds so when ur boost drops below that it would be spraying 100% and you wont be making as much power up top that you could be making


Cheers!

 

i have it set at 24... i dont taper much do to the the EBC and forge wastegate... i spike to about 27 hold that and maybe fall to 25, i have max set at 24....

also, when it sprays, just because you fall below your max, doesnt mean it stops spraying completely, just means it doesnt spray as much. But, advice takin into something else to try out on the dyno, but i think 24 is correct where i have it by how the car feels and my logs

 

There are many ways to skin a cat - the main thing is for your concept about setting up the alcohol controller to work with your tuning plan

In order to maintain the true progressive nature of the controller and system the max boost must be at your max boost

If the max boost setting is at or near your max when the boost is rising you are spraying more alcohol

Setting the max boost knob lower than the max will result in the alcohol flow reaching a fixed rate after the point you set it - which is fine

For example the HFS-1 by Aquamist uses a single stage and is very effective and smooth

In the end how you set the knobs boils down to how you are setting up and tuning the car

I presonally prefer to set the max at the max boost point so the flow rate will slow slightly as the boost is tapering

As these progressive pump duty cycle kits are less than precision devises in the end as long as its spraying the same way every time you will be ok no matter how you set it

Al

 

turn it down to 22 just to give urself a little extra head room....


the less progressive you make it the more torque youll make

 

Spray on point 10psi, full on point 15-18psi.

Our typical settings are spray on 10 and full on 15psi with 15gph jet flowing to about 1000cc.

Real meth injection applications use sufficient meth volume.

No system designed for REAL performance should run less than 10-15 gph min.