fireroasted

iTrader: (3)

Hey all, I just finished the lifter bleeding as we have lots of info on the forum about it. Even a sticky in this thread. I am installing Kelford 272 and that was one of the tasks. In my research I did find this site which contradicts the lifter bleeding logic I thought I learned here. This is more in line with the dieseling stuff.

The jist from what I read is that you bleed the air out and pump up the lifter, which is not what I did, and that you want them hard to compress. This is the opposite of our posts here.

Just thought I would throw this link out to see what comments come from the engine building gurus.

http://www.4g63turbo.com/tech/4g63-lifter-bleeding.html

My03evo

iTrader: (1)

In the link sounds like a noob wrote it. Before you put the lifters in they should be soft, not hard. You want them soft so they "adjust" to the proper depth in the lifter. And I would trust the mitsu engineers and all the other resources that say to do it rather than some dude on a site. Sure some never bled there lifters n never had a problem but many have had ticking when they hadn't done it.

My03evo

iTrader: (1)

Double post

barneyb

I've heard and read lots of both views. The thing is, not bleeding could possibly cause a problem (don't really know if it does or not). Bleeding, on the other hand, seems a safer thing to do.

antilag_200

iTrader: (49)

Not bleeding your lifters can cause this



By HAND ... ( higher lift cams, oversize valves and shaved surfaces )

211Ratsbud

iTrader: (1)

Can cause what? Alcoholism?

lol..

funny.. but Im going to be installing cams soon, so Im taking what I can with this process!

fireroasted

iTrader: (3)

with a shot of brake cleaner.

I thought it was interesting the post referred to the air in the lifters as the issue, so actually recommending what we have here as dieseling them. Which, by the way, I didn't do. Mine are in the head nice a squishy soft, but the engine is not back in the car yet.

The other write ups on that page are pretty damn good by the way, so its not a noob, but maybe just a different point of view. Just thought it would be interesting to share since I have been trying to learn much during this build.

Antilag200-did that happen by just torquing down the cams without bleeding the lifters? Holy Cr@p.

Anarchy99

iTrader: (196)

I've had many sets of cams installed and have never had the lifters bled with zero problems, ever.

antilag_200

iTrader: (49)

it leads to alcoholism LOL..

basically if the lifter is not bled, you have the potential for the valve to be hung up or not in its seat... couple this with cams that have large lifts, a diameter of a valve that is larger than stock... your piston to valve clearances decrease... So when you go to rotate the engine to make sure that you are in time, there will be a BUNCH of leverage on that valve as the piston approaches TDC ( think of your lifter has a fulcrum point).. causing it to tweek and play leaning tower of piza .

BLEED YOUR LIFTERS SO THAT THEY ARE COLLAPSED, regardless of what cams you have. Its easy, fast and cheap insurance .

fireroasted

iTrader: (3)

Here is a bit from the FSM, which also indicates to make sure there is no air in the lifter. (lash adjuster). Its from 11B-41. here is the text pasted in.

8. Place the lash adjuster upright with the plunger at the top. Push the plunger firmly until it makes a full stroke, then return the plunger slowly and release the hold of the steel ball to allow the pressure chamber to be filled with diesel fuel.
9. Take the lash adjuster out of the container, place it upright with the plunger at the top, and push the plunger firmly. The plunger must not move at all.
NOTE: If the lash adjuster contracts, perform the operations 7 through 9 again. Replace the lash adjuster if it still con- tracts even after the pressure chamber has completely been filled with diesel fuel (air has been bled).
10.Keep the serviced lash adjusters in their upright positions to prevent diesel fuel from spilling out. Protect them from dust or other foreign matter. Install the lash adjusters onto the engine as soon as possible.

So I am getting at, is that I bled them according to the many posts here, but this is indicating to pump them up with diesel, and make sure the air is out, and that they don't contract. Mine are all soft now, and contract easily.

fireroasted

iTrader: (3)

I recently had to replace a defectively milled Kelford 272 intake CAM, and this was a identical cam replacement. One that exhibited no ticking. I made this OP and then started my motor and didn't have any ticking from that build. Now that I have replaced the cam for the same cam I now have crazy ticking noises. in the original sticky bleeding thread timz makes a comment that you need to bleed the lifters even for an identical cam swap.

Is that true?

Then I started searching for I of and found my own thread on bleeding. Doh! but, it dies here. Nobody wanted to respond to the comments in the FSM about filling them up with diesel.

Do you want them soft to compress when install cams or do you want them hard and full of diesel fuel?

batty200

iTrader: (3)

I don't bleed them but I also let the cams sit in the car with the pistons at mid stroke while I reassemble the rest of the stuff. Then I time the engine and get it going. Never turn the cams while the engine is at tdc. It takes a lot of force to bend valves. I am surprised you bent valves by hand.

BogusSVO

iTrader: (1)

With cams, and OS valves, the valves can contact the other valves causing them to bend.

The best way is to bleed the HLAs before install, they will quot the ticking once they get oil pressure and settle into place.

Yes over a day or two, the HLAs will bleed down on there own from spring pressure. But only the ones that have the spring compressed full lift or close to full lift.

Want to check if you need to bleed or not... With the head off, install the un-bleed HLAs.
Now roll the head over so the HG surface is up.
Shine a flash light up the runner of the valves that should be closed. You wull see some of the valves cracked open.

Now pull the cams again, bleed the HLAs, and check again.
Now no light passes through the seal of valve and seat.

Diesel fuel is for cleaning used HLA's.
I personally would not want diesel fuel left in my HLAs when installing them, even that small amount x 16 I feel would be enough to thin the oil out some.

If you fire the engine up to get oil to the HLA's and pump the diesel out of them , then do an oil change, that would be ok.

fireroasted

iTrader: (3)

I think the ongoing variation on all these threads is:

1 - Do they need to be pumped full and hard so they don't compress like the FSM states (filled with diesel).

2 - Or should they be empty and soft, but thereby contain air during start up. I think the question here becomes; does the air bleed completely out during running operations and if not is that the ticking we all end up hearing.

There are many threads here that state not bleeding them is the cause for the ticking, which contradicts #2 above. Those thread indicate the air in the lifter is the way to resolve the ticking once they fill up with oil.

Other threads argue the FSM is correct and all of the air needs to be remove before installation.

Off of those questions my question is would bleeding empty would that be expected if you are replacing with exactly the same cam (same lobes etc)

Ted B

iTrader: (6)

Filling and stroking the lifters with diesel should be used strictly a cleaning procedure, and to verify correct operation of the lifter's plunger. Under no circumstances should anyone install a lifter filled with diesel into an engine. Contaminating the oil with diesel is not a good thing.

The lifter has an internal spring, but relies upon oil pressure to function properly. When the lifter is ticking, what you are hearing is the lifter plunger being fully compressed against its internal spring, with insufficient oil pressure to stop it. Oil pressure expands the lifter such that it zeros the cam lash when operating. This means it will expand just enough to take up the slack between the valve stem and heel of the cam lobe. The lifter has oil passages both in and out. Oil flows when the engine is running, but the lifter's oil passages are sized such as to keep pressure within the lifter during engine operation. It is the resistance of the oil pressure within the lifter that keeps the lifter pumped when the nose of the cam lobe comes around.

If the oil feed becomes obstructed such that oil pressure within the lifter is allowed to escape faster than it can be fed, the lifter will collapse and tick.

If the oil exit becomes obstructed, it may be possible for the lifter to over extend, which could cause bent valves, etc. It seems hard for me to believe that one would get a 4G63 lifter to do this simply by filling it with oil during assembly. The valvesprings should provide enough force to partially bleed the lifter of oil if the engine is rotated by hand prior to startup. If no mechanical contact is made then, it shouldn't change with the engine running.

If the lifters are installed bled, they should pump up shortly after the engine is running. If any lifters are ticking with the engine under running oil pressures, they're not functioning properly, the result being reduced valve timing.