coolnick

iTrader: (9)

I would like to revisit my braking issues now that the Mid Ohio NASA HPDE date is coming up and I'm sure this would be a useful discussion for anyone going to or planning to go any track events this year. Last year I boiled the fluid in my car at Putnam and I would like to avoid a repeat of that situation. Here are the reasons why I think it happened in order of importance:

1. Never changed the brake fluid
2. Kept checking the brakes before actual braking at the end of the straight
3. No air guides, and backing plates still on the car
4. Pad choice? (Hawk HP+)

The first one, yeah I'm an idiot. I never thought the fluid would boil, I figured I would fade the pads first. I was wrong. Now I have ATE blue in the car. The second, I was a little nervous and couldn't find a clear marker to concentrate on so I kept braking a little early. I was also not used to the pads and the way they changed with temperature. The third, I am considering ordering the brake air guides and removing the backing plates. Any thoughts on this? And finally the pads. I know these aren't ideal track pads, but I assume they are good enough for someone that wants to go moderately fast on a road course while still "learning the ropes". Will another pad better suited for track days also help prevent fluid boil, or is pad compound not related to the transfer of heat from pad to fluid?

And where do you guys get the ceramic or titanium pad shims that are supposed to help fight heat tranfer to the fluid?

Discuss and help a track newb. I've done a few Mid Ohio schools, but never in a fast car. I am looking forward to having a good time and would like to keep my shorts clean.

cij911

iTrader: (14)

ATE Blue is NOT a racing fluid, but rather a good street fluid...I would highly recommend switching to a fluid with a much higher boiling point (e.g. Motul)....Also, braking technique can play a major factor in overheating -- brake quick and hard -- most are on the brakes too long causing increased heat...

Tsurara

iTrader: (12)

Upgrade to some Motul RBF 600, or better yet Castrol SRF. Depending on your experience, you may want a better pad than the HP+. I like the Ferodo DS2500 for a starter pad. Really your pad selection and fluid choice are the reason for your braking issues.

What sort of tires are you running? I would seriously advise against buying air ducts or titanium shims until you have more experience and are using R-Compounds.

coolnick

iTrader: (9)

I am running street tires and don't plan to push the car to its limits. I've had Ferodo DS2500s and I would say the HP+ are strikingly similar. I checked the dry and wet boiling points of the ATE and the Motul and there wasn't enough of a difference to justify the cost.

ATE wet-536 dry-392
Motul wet-590 dry-421

And after speaking with several people at the track it seemed like a mixed bag as far as who was running what fluid. Lots of people recommended the Wilwood fluid and swore by it, but its properties were worse than, or on par with the ATE. I am 100% positive that my prolonged braking was most of the problem. They had no markers at the end of the straight and I wasn't comfortable with the pads as they kept changing throughout the 20 minute session.

Why would you advise against the air guides and shims? I would think they could only help.

Percywork

DO NOT use ATE. Motul.

Ludikraut

iTrader: (17)

Go with Motul RBF600 at the very least. At something like $15 per bottle (quart) it's not exactly expensive. I've managed to fade HP+ pads, but I've never boiled the RBF600.

Some things to look at/consider for your braking issues:
1.) Get better fluid
2.) Bleed your brakes the day before the track day
3.) Get better pads (lots of opinions here, but you'll want something better than the HP+ me thinks)
4.) Install SS-brake lines
5.) Work on your braking habits. Unlike on the street, on the track you want to brake HARD (don't _slam_ on the pedal, but firmly push it down). This is the biggest thing I learned on my very first track day. Had horrible fade in the first couple of sessions, and then got rid of 90% of it. Pick your brake points ... if you come up short on the turn, it's ok. Just adjust your brake point accordingly.

l8r)

High_PSI

iTrader: (50)

Add Dot-4 fluid

boomn29

iTrader: (47)

I've boiled the stock fluid! I'm now running Motul and bleed prior to every event.

I've managed to run the stock pads up until now. I have a set of PF Z-pads I plan to install this weekend. I don't think they are quite as aggressive as the Hawk pads, but mine's more of a street car so it seemed to fit the bill nicely per AMS's recommendations.

texrex2002

iTrader: (2)

don't brake

ZzyzxM

iTrader: (1)

If you can afford to track your car, you can afford to get the Motul RBF.

Now the Castrol SRF on the other hand... it's like liquid money. If you're quiet when you bleed your brakes with the SRF, you can hear your wallet scream in agony.

coolnick

iTrader: (9)

Damnit I knew I was doing something wrong.


Come on somebody has to be using ATE or worse on here. And I can't believe you would make it 5 minutes into a session on the stock pads, I faded mine on the highway on one hard braking maneuver.

LDOGGYDIZZLE

iTrader: (1)

Castrol's only benefit over the Motul 600 is wet temp. I use Motul rbf 600 in all of our race and street cars.

Thats the first step.

Your permenant solution:

AMS EVO VII/VIII/IX Brake Cooling Kit [FRONT]*
http://www.amsperformance.com/store/...oducts_id=1202

dadriva

iTrader: (5)

Good thread.

No one for removing the backing plates?

Anyone have success with *adding* the factory brake cooling ducts as a fix?

Ludikraut

iTrader: (17)

Even with the brake cooling scoops and some cooling ducts I managed to get the HP+ to fade. Bottom line is that you need a better pad than that. The factory brake air guides are so-so, IMO. Probably just as good at spitting gravel onto your discs as they are redirecting air.

coolnick: discounting my own opinion and experiences, you've got some fairly experienced people giving you advice on the brake fluid and pretty much all of them have a consensus ... food for thought?

l8r)

evoatcha

iTrader: (1)

God, that's funny.

Definitely remove the dust covers from the rotors if you are tracking the car. They trap heat. More cool air ducted to the rotors is a great idea, whether it's the factory optional scoops or a more expensive aftermarket set up.

Also remember to cool the brakes (and the turbo) as much as you can at the end of the session. On the cool down lap, I make students go all the way around the track using NO brakes at all. It's a great exercise in car control too. Just take it easy on the throttle and plan ahead for the turn so you can take it without braking during the cool down. Then heading off track and into the paddock, go very slow and only use the hand brake, to give the front brakes a rest. Then keep going out of the paddock, and drive slowly at least three miles on the service roads or down the highway, turn around and come back, using the brakes as little as possible. Remember that on the track your front rotors could be hitting 1400F or more. It takes a while to bring that back down, and you don't want the pads sitting in one spot on the rotors while they're super hot. That causes uneven deposits, what some people think is warping.

At the track, ask around for somebody with one of those infrared brake rotor temp guns to check your rotors as you come off track. You will be amazed how hot they are, even after a one-lap cool down.