My 04 Thunder Grey SQ Competition Ralliart
Jul 8, 2013, 07:50 AM
#61
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No problem RalliartN, happy to share what I can.
Bakuro - it's just the single XS D3400 up front. No second battery. I don't run the stereo for hours with the engine off, so there's no real need. My subwoofer amps use Class G/H technology so they are quite efficient, and the IB subwoofer setup is very efficient itself (a combined 94dB at 1W/1m, compared to many subs that are around 84dB). That coupled with the XS battery and large diameter wire results in no hint of light dimming until I'm really jamming some bass heavy stuff at very high volume. My very first setup in this car was a Kenwood 900W amp on a pair of Alpine Type R 10's in a sealed box (Autozone battery, 4ga wire, no upgraded grounds) and I got much more voltage drop with that setup than I do currently with 3300W worth of amplifier. Remember that power and sound level you get from amps and speakers is not a linear relationship. You have to double power to gain 3dB. So if my subwoofer system is 10dB more efficient than another (84dB vs 94dB), the other system will have to use 10x the power to get as loud as mine. I need around 130W to reach 115dB. The other system will need around 1,300W. That obviously takes a ton more current to produce and clearly shows the benefit of efficient speakers.
You really only need a second battery if you plan to use the system a lot with the engine off or run huge amps on an inefficient sub setup, or if you like driving around blasting music at 145dB. People usually use them or add a capacitor (which is also a band-aid fix) when they notice their headlights dimming when the bass hits. This is caused by voltage drop that occurs when the alternator can't supply enough current on demand for the amps, so the car's battery steps in to help out. In these situations, large diameter wire for main grounds and the alternator can help, as well as a high output alternator. Batteries are most useful for running the system for extended periods with the engine off, or if you're competing in SPL. An extra battery is a lot of extra expense and weight that isn't worth it unless you really need it. The small light racing batteries or hybrid "batcap" devices can't really hurt though and can be fit many more places. They're also quite expensive however.
Bakuro - it's just the single XS D3400 up front. No second battery. I don't run the stereo for hours with the engine off, so there's no real need. My subwoofer amps use Class G/H technology so they are quite efficient, and the IB subwoofer setup is very efficient itself (a combined 94dB at 1W/1m, compared to many subs that are around 84dB). That coupled with the XS battery and large diameter wire results in no hint of light dimming until I'm really jamming some bass heavy stuff at very high volume. My very first setup in this car was a Kenwood 900W amp on a pair of Alpine Type R 10's in a sealed box (Autozone battery, 4ga wire, no upgraded grounds) and I got much more voltage drop with that setup than I do currently with 3300W worth of amplifier. Remember that power and sound level you get from amps and speakers is not a linear relationship. You have to double power to gain 3dB. So if my subwoofer system is 10dB more efficient than another (84dB vs 94dB), the other system will have to use 10x the power to get as loud as mine. I need around 130W to reach 115dB. The other system will need around 1,300W. That obviously takes a ton more current to produce and clearly shows the benefit of efficient speakers.
You really only need a second battery if you plan to use the system a lot with the engine off or run huge amps on an inefficient sub setup, or if you like driving around blasting music at 145dB. People usually use them or add a capacitor (which is also a band-aid fix) when they notice their headlights dimming when the bass hits. This is caused by voltage drop that occurs when the alternator can't supply enough current on demand for the amps, so the car's battery steps in to help out. In these situations, large diameter wire for main grounds and the alternator can help, as well as a high output alternator. Batteries are most useful for running the system for extended periods with the engine off, or if you're competing in SPL. An extra battery is a lot of extra expense and weight that isn't worth it unless you really need it. The small light racing batteries or hybrid "batcap" devices can't really hurt though and can be fit many more places. They're also quite expensive however.
Last edited by strakele; Jul 8, 2013 at 08:12 AM.
Jul 8, 2013, 08:41 AM
#62
Awesome. Man you really know your stuff! 
Thanks for explaining that. I didnt know what purpose he was trying to achieve by having a second battery back there other than maybe running it for a while with the car off.
I nominate Strakele for RA audio expert! :P
Thanks for explaining that. I didnt know what purpose he was trying to achieve by having a second battery back there other than maybe running it for a while with the car off.
I nominate Strakele for RA audio expert! :P
Feb 23, 2014, 05:01 PM
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Thought I had posted this already but apparently not...
Couple little things first...
My XS D3400 up and died on me one day, so it had to get replaced:
Along with that, I got this cool little voltmeter so I can keep track of battery voltage whenever I demo with the car off and no charger. Just plugs into the cigarette lighter. I think it reads a tenth or two low so there's a bit of built in safety margin.
Now on to the main update..
Ever since I've been running a front sub, I've always had it band passed, not just low passed. But I wanted something I could run with no high pass and be able to take whatever I throw at it and not care. So after doing some research and modeling, I decided to try out the 5th generation Alpine Type R. The whole Alpine sub lineup has gotten a major overhaul recently with lots of new high tech features implemented, and they've been getting great reviews.
But this introduces a problem. All 10" subs are not actually the same size and the last time I swapped one out it required hacking up and modifying the baffle quite a bit. This time I wanted to do it right and not cut corners. (Well actually, I decided to really do it right after cutting corners didn't work lol) Basically, the screw holes were pretty worn out, and the cutout circle wasn't exactly circular so one of the screws didn't really have anything to bite into so I couldn't get a good seal. Anyone who has heard a sealed sub box that isn't quite sealed knows it sounds utterly horrible. So with that, I decided to completely remove the baffle and start over.
However, I first decided to test each sub free air. At this point I became concerned because the Alpine had significantly more mechanical noise than the Dayton. With how close the sub will be to me in the cabin, that could easily be a deal-breaker. I'd be furious if I spent the time and money to completely rebuild the front of the enclosure only to find that the sub is too noisy, so I needed a way to test it.
So off to the store to pick up a prefab enclosure to test it in, just to make sure it actually does sound good.
It passed the test (though the test enclosure didn't lol), so the project moved on.
Carpet pulled off. You can see the mounting surface looks kinda smooth and shiny where I tried to just add some resin to bring in back to life a bit. No go.
After a bit of time with the circular saw and a couple pry bars, baffle and fiberglass enclosure are no longer one.
Sanded and chipped out most of the excess globs of filler, resin, fiberglass, and other stuff in the enclosure to maximize airspace as much as possible.
The Alpine sub sits fairly high over the baffle which probably would have interfered with my cover panel, so I had to countersink the sub in the box. Both top layers are built out so as not to take up any enclosure volume, and the third layer is basically just a ring to double the thickness of where the screws bite into to further solidify mounting without taking up any more volume than necessary. This .5 cubic foot enclosure is a bit small for the Alpine, so I wanted to get every bit I could out of it.
Baffles screwed together and covered in resin. Used machine screws and hurricane nuts to mount the sub instead of wood screws this time. I will never mount another sub with wood screws after using these!
After the baffle was glued to the enclosure with resin, the entire perimeter on both the inside and outside was sealed with at least 2-3 layers of fiberglass mat.
Test fit - works perfect!
Wrapped in black and stuffed with some polyfill:
Sub installed:
And in the car:
Cover panel back on:
Weather has been nasty here so no good lighting for better pics. But you get the idea. The Type R is a pretty cool looking sub with the black cone, red logo, multi roll surround, and gasket that covers the screws.
Most importantly, it does what I wanted it to do. The enclosure is completely sealed, and the sub takes anything I throw at it with no need for a high pass. Victory. Also definitely more output than before.
Couple little things first...
My XS D3400 up and died on me one day, so it had to get replaced:
Along with that, I got this cool little voltmeter so I can keep track of battery voltage whenever I demo with the car off and no charger. Just plugs into the cigarette lighter. I think it reads a tenth or two low so there's a bit of built in safety margin.
Now on to the main update..
Ever since I've been running a front sub, I've always had it band passed, not just low passed. But I wanted something I could run with no high pass and be able to take whatever I throw at it and not care. So after doing some research and modeling, I decided to try out the 5th generation Alpine Type R. The whole Alpine sub lineup has gotten a major overhaul recently with lots of new high tech features implemented, and they've been getting great reviews.
But this introduces a problem. All 10" subs are not actually the same size and the last time I swapped one out it required hacking up and modifying the baffle quite a bit. This time I wanted to do it right and not cut corners. (Well actually, I decided to really do it right after cutting corners didn't work lol) Basically, the screw holes were pretty worn out, and the cutout circle wasn't exactly circular so one of the screws didn't really have anything to bite into so I couldn't get a good seal. Anyone who has heard a sealed sub box that isn't quite sealed knows it sounds utterly horrible. So with that, I decided to completely remove the baffle and start over.
However, I first decided to test each sub free air. At this point I became concerned because the Alpine had significantly more mechanical noise than the Dayton. With how close the sub will be to me in the cabin, that could easily be a deal-breaker. I'd be furious if I spent the time and money to completely rebuild the front of the enclosure only to find that the sub is too noisy, so I needed a way to test it.
So off to the store to pick up a prefab enclosure to test it in, just to make sure it actually does sound good.
It passed the test (though the test enclosure didn't lol), so the project moved on.
Carpet pulled off. You can see the mounting surface looks kinda smooth and shiny where I tried to just add some resin to bring in back to life a bit. No go.
After a bit of time with the circular saw and a couple pry bars, baffle and fiberglass enclosure are no longer one.
Sanded and chipped out most of the excess globs of filler, resin, fiberglass, and other stuff in the enclosure to maximize airspace as much as possible.
The Alpine sub sits fairly high over the baffle which probably would have interfered with my cover panel, so I had to countersink the sub in the box. Both top layers are built out so as not to take up any enclosure volume, and the third layer is basically just a ring to double the thickness of where the screws bite into to further solidify mounting without taking up any more volume than necessary. This .5 cubic foot enclosure is a bit small for the Alpine, so I wanted to get every bit I could out of it.
Baffles screwed together and covered in resin. Used machine screws and hurricane nuts to mount the sub instead of wood screws this time. I will never mount another sub with wood screws after using these!
After the baffle was glued to the enclosure with resin, the entire perimeter on both the inside and outside was sealed with at least 2-3 layers of fiberglass mat.
Test fit - works perfect!
Wrapped in black and stuffed with some polyfill:
Sub installed:
And in the car:
Cover panel back on:
Weather has been nasty here so no good lighting for better pics. But you get the idea. The Type R is a pretty cool looking sub with the black cone, red logo, multi roll surround, and gasket that covers the screws.
Most importantly, it does what I wanted it to do. The enclosure is completely sealed, and the sub takes anything I throw at it with no need for a high pass. Victory. Also definitely more output than before.
Mar 7, 2014, 12:02 PM
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Thanks! It's something I found on a website for BMWs. They call them 'interior color strips'.
They make rolls of thin colored trim like this that you can get on eBay for like $6 for 15 feet, but it has 3M foam tape on the back for attaching it to stuff, which doesn't work that well, is too thick, and overall just looks cheap.
This stuff was like 6 times as expensive for the same 15ft, but looks much nicer and instead of just taping on the surface, has a very thin strip that you actually wedge between panels so that it's sitting IN gaps instead of ON them, which is a much better design. It also comes with tape that you can add to help it hold in areas where the gaps aren't that tight.
They make rolls of thin colored trim like this that you can get on eBay for like $6 for 15 feet, but it has 3M foam tape on the back for attaching it to stuff, which doesn't work that well, is too thick, and overall just looks cheap.
This stuff was like 6 times as expensive for the same 15ft, but looks much nicer and instead of just taping on the surface, has a very thin strip that you actually wedge between panels so that it's sitting IN gaps instead of ON them, which is a much better design. It also comes with tape that you can add to help it hold in areas where the gaps aren't that tight.
Last edited by strakele; Mar 7, 2014 at 12:10 PM.
Mar 8, 2014, 09:28 AM
#74
that was easy - I just searched "bmw interior colour strips" and came up with a Canadian supplier: http://www.bimmian.com/Interior-Colo...W-E46-3-Series and fair price for the piping since as strakele points out you get what you pay for.
Man, gotta love German precision and quality, I wish I bled money like bimmer people...
Man, gotta love German precision and quality, I wish I bled money like bimmer people...
Last edited by RalliartN; Mar 8, 2014 at 09:34 AM.
Mar 8, 2014, 11:47 AM
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Yeah that's where I got it from. Kinda expensive shipping for a small product, but that site and a couple of related dealers are the only place you can get them, and they all charge the same price and shipping.
The way it's designed, it can curve side to side easily (like around a bend), but it can't curve up and down to follow a curve that isn't on a flat surface unless you cut the bottom to allow it to bend. Kinda a bad description but you'd understand when you hold it.
The way it's designed, it can curve side to side easily (like around a bend), but it can't curve up and down to follow a curve that isn't on a flat surface unless you cut the bottom to allow it to bend. Kinda a bad description but you'd understand when you hold it.