Best bolt on gt30 kit ATP vs Vishnu vs Buschur
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From: Burbank
Ok, found 'em!
I rescaled the dyno-jet maps to simulate the look of the dyno-dynamics. Please keep in mind these two dynos read differently (as far as raw numbers) but the peak output is close to the same with the ATP kit being maybe 5% less off of the Vishnu's peak.
2 kits
ATP stage 2 3037 Tuned by Vishnu
Vishnu stage 2 3037 Tuned by Tuning Technologies/Vishnu
both 91 and 98 octane graphs.
For the most part, just note the shape of the curves. They tell the story.
All pulls in 3rd gear, but Tuning technologies started their pull sequence 800 rpm later
.
I hope this clarifies the differences.
I rescaled the dyno-jet maps to simulate the look of the dyno-dynamics. Please keep in mind these two dynos read differently (as far as raw numbers) but the peak output is close to the same with the ATP kit being maybe 5% less off of the Vishnu's peak.
2 kits
ATP stage 2 3037 Tuned by Vishnu
Vishnu stage 2 3037 Tuned by Tuning Technologies/Vishnu
both 91 and 98 octane graphs.
For the most part, just note the shape of the curves. They tell the story.
All pulls in 3rd gear, but Tuning technologies started their pull sequence 800 rpm later
.I hope this clarifies the differences.
Last edited by Jaylenospoolboy; Aug 26, 2005 at 03:00 PM.
Honestly, it is not fair to compare DD graphs and DJ graphs. An AWD DynoJet loads up the car much more, which in turn gets the turbo to spool sooner. Traditionally, if you look at the two types of graphs on a stock Evo turbo setup, you'll see the dynojet producing the classic "torque hump", whereas the DynoDynamics makes a smoother curve.
l8r)
l8r)
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From: Burbank
Originally Posted by Ludikraut
Honestly, it is not fair to compare DD graphs and DJ graphs. An AWD DynoJet loads up the car much more, which in turn gets the turbo to spool sooner. Traditionally, if you look at the two types of graphs on a stock Evo turbo setup, you'll see the dynojet producing the classic "torque hump", whereas the DynoDynamics makes a smoother curve.
l8r)
l8r)
Driving the car with the 2 set-ups pretty much mimics what you see in the graphs though. In fifth gear on the street, the Vishnu spools up about 800 rpm sooner and gets to the redline faster.
Originally Posted by Supernaut
That should help but I really think it is the Hotside. If I were him I would swap in a True Garrett Hotside and a new Manifold that way. May as well he’ll get faster spool for sure with the true Garrett hotside. I have no idea where to purchase a Garrett Hotside from but you can get a manifold for that quite easily.
Why do you post your opinion as a fact when you don’t have any idea on what you are talking about?
I had ATP. I had stock manifold and tubular manifold and it did not make any difference, nothing not even 1 hp it was exact same. At that power level ~400 whp the stock manifold is still the best to have. I speak from experience you speak from you a$$.
Now, The ATP hot side just to let you know was developed by Garrett, I bet you did not know that did you?
.Pick up the phone and call Garrett and ask them.
The ATP hot side was developed for the following reasons:
1- Reliability.
2- Direct fit to the stock manifold for the ultimate stealth look.
3- It fits with everything being stock around it.
4- cost effective for your money.
Last thing was looked at was performance in this kit.
The kit does come short with its 3071 turbo of around ~20 WHP than other standard Garret hot side but not everyone out there can pay ~1500 for other kits and not have %100 stock looking car in CALI and sometimes in VA.
I swear that this post should be sticky.
SEARCH SEARCH SEARCH.
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The ATP hotside was developed by ATP. It was NOT developed by Garrett.
ATP is a Garrett distributor, true. But the ATP hotside for the Evo is of ATP's sole design and manufacture. If you have any shred of doubt at this, I encourage you confirm this fact with ATP. Their tele# is 510.445.1682.
Just setting the facts straight. Carry on.
ATP is a Garrett distributor, true. But the ATP hotside for the Evo is of ATP's sole design and manufacture. If you have any shred of doubt at this, I encourage you confirm this fact with ATP. Their tele# is 510.445.1682.
Just setting the facts straight. Carry on.
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From: Burbank
Originally Posted by htsai14752
good info Az3ar, but do you know where you can get a different hotside for the atp kit? is this possible?
It's called the Vishnu Stage 2 using a stock Garrett hotside... or the Buscher.
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From: Into the Void
Why do you post your opinion as a fact when you don’t have any idea on what you are talking about
Yeah I know dude, all those Dyno's and tuners and personal experiance, I mean WTF right?
Again from MY EXPERIENCE with this turbo, it has poor spool and poor topend compaired to an unmolested Garrett turbo. YOUR DYNO NUMBERS ironically back this up
.
. I speak from experience you speak from you a$$.
In all seriousness this is a discussion on these kits, I find it VERY immature that you would bad mouth a member that has different opinions then you, this is a discussion not an opinionated pissing match. If you read this forum you would see that others agree with me AND have issues matching my description.
P.S. you made 380, which is right in line what this kit will make on pump, not 420+++ like all the unmolested kits with bettspool and topend.
IT IS VERY NICE for the money, but doesn't do what regular garrett's do.
The kit does come short with its 3071 turbo of around ~20 WHP than other standard Garret hot side but not everyone out there can pay ~1500 for other kits and not have %100 stock looking car in CALI and sometimes in VA.
, after all those flames, oh and try 40WHP missing, otherwise you get detonation up top. Kinda why you get a laggy spoolup, it shoots way up, then falls off, you dyno run proves this one, the one that shows 380WHP?
The ATP hot side was developed for the following reasons:
1- Reliability.
2- Direct fit to the stock manifold for the ultimate stealth look.
3- It fits with everything being stock around it.
4- cost effective for your money.
1- Reliability.
2- Direct fit to the stock manifold for the ultimate stealth look.
3- It fits with everything being stock around it.
4- cost effective for your money.
Last edited by Supernaut; Aug 27, 2005 at 01:09 PM.
Supernot, If I remember correctly, As3ar made something like 350whp with NO OTHER MODS, just the ATP 3071 kit. Mobounce made 391 on pump with mods.
Also somewhere in these forums is a guy running a AMS 3071 with all supporting mods and made 378 whp with full boost in the mid 4000's.
So what do you suppose happened, I mean surely there is no way that ams kit only made that little whp with that kind of lag, please explain.
I have yet to see an rnr or ams 3071 make 420+whp on pump and I doubt you have to. So again bring some facts to the table or quit, you have added nothing but your meaningless opinion with nothing to back it up.
Also somewhere in these forums is a guy running a AMS 3071 with all supporting mods and made 378 whp with full boost in the mid 4000's.
So what do you suppose happened, I mean surely there is no way that ams kit only made that little whp with that kind of lag, please explain.
I have yet to see an rnr or ams 3071 make 420+whp on pump and I doubt you have to. So again bring some facts to the table or quit, you have added nothing but your meaningless opinion with nothing to back it up.
Originally Posted by Ron
The ATP hotside was developed by ATP. It was NOT developed by Garrett.
ATP is a Garrett distributor, true. But the ATP hotside for the Evo is of ATP's sole design and manufacture. If you have any shred of doubt at this, I encourage you confirm this fact with ATP. Their tele# is 510.445.1682.
Just setting the facts straight. Carry on.
ATP is a Garrett distributor, true. But the ATP hotside for the Evo is of ATP's sole design and manufacture. If you have any shred of doubt at this, I encourage you confirm this fact with ATP. Their tele# is 510.445.1682.
Just setting the facts straight. Carry on.
Almost a year ago I called Garrett and I had along nice chat with a guy about ATP kit and their hot side.
He confirmed many times that it was designed and developed by Garrett and ATP had a hand in too.
Their hot side requires alot of work so I don’t think that ATP (~5 employees in total) can develop such hot side alone with no real help.
It’s a cast part and its no easy job to do in fact no vendor here had made such a thing.
My EVO now has 264HKS exhaust and 2005 turbo. I made 330WHP with that setup.
With ATP 3071 I made 350WHP and had no cams.
My dyno is all over the forums show me some dyno numbers for AMS and Vishnu kit with no cams?
I don't even have the kit now and I don’t even care but I hate when people kiss vendors a$$.
Every kit out there has advantages and disadvantages. I will be ordering an AMS kit for my friend here soon. I will be installing it and testing it as well. I will report back with a full thread.
Originally Posted by Jaylenospoolboy
If you compare apples to apples and back out the cost of injectors, turbo inlet, and slimline - things the other kits don't offer- fan the Vishnu cost is close to $3400-3500 which is a lot less than the AMS Kit. There is also a modified engine mount which keeps stress off of the exhaust manifold - something ATP doesn't offer - as well as a bung for the SMART wideband o2 sensor in the midpipe.
The quality of Vishnu's fabrication and fitment is also superior to the ATP. Vishnu kits are hard to get because their fabricator takes excruciating pains to make sure everything fits and that takes time.
As far as the hotside is concerned, from what I've read, the ATP 3071 hotside is less of an issue than it was for the 3037s (30R).
From a quality standpoint, the Vishnu is a better made and better performing unit than the ATP and is very much a pleasure to drive.
As far as Dave's kit is concerned, I don't have any experience with it, but just looking at their site, they don't provide the IC tubes, turbo inlet pipe, dp w/ o2 housing and mid-pipe but do give you a cast manifold on their kit which may help flow on race gas.
Most likely you'll end up spending the same amount for either the Buscher or Vishnu when you do a part for part comparison. There is no magic bullet and you get what you pay for.
Jbfoco, you are in Northern California which is near Vishnu. That could work to your favor.
As an FYI, Shiv estimates that there may be a 15 whp difference between the cast and tubular manifolds on his 30R kits on race gas, and no difference with pump on his kit. Spool is identical (3300 rpm boost spool, 4000 rpm max boost pressure).
The quality of Vishnu's fabrication and fitment is also superior to the ATP. Vishnu kits are hard to get because their fabricator takes excruciating pains to make sure everything fits and that takes time.
As far as the hotside is concerned, from what I've read, the ATP 3071 hotside is less of an issue than it was for the 3037s (30R).
From a quality standpoint, the Vishnu is a better made and better performing unit than the ATP and is very much a pleasure to drive.
As far as Dave's kit is concerned, I don't have any experience with it, but just looking at their site, they don't provide the IC tubes, turbo inlet pipe, dp w/ o2 housing and mid-pipe but do give you a cast manifold on their kit which may help flow on race gas.
Most likely you'll end up spending the same amount for either the Buscher or Vishnu when you do a part for part comparison. There is no magic bullet and you get what you pay for.
Jbfoco, you are in Northern California which is near Vishnu. That could work to your favor.
As an FYI, Shiv estimates that there may be a 15 whp difference between the cast and tubular manifolds on his 30R kits on race gas, and no difference with pump on his kit. Spool is identical (3300 rpm boost spool, 4000 rpm max boost pressure).
also the hotside of the atp kit may not be such a big deal... i don't think anyone is scrapping their turbo kit because the hot side didn't work out for them... most people are swapping because they want something larger.
and the br mani is basically a revised stock mani that is flanged for aftermarket turbos.
Originally Posted by trinydex
why are you saying *** backwards stuff? the 3071r is a 30r turbo, the 3037s is an hks turbo that is made by garrett and is basically a 3076 with some custom specs. a cast manifold will not make you flow on race gas better.
also the hotside of the atp kit may not be such a big deal... i don't think anyone is scrapping their turbo kit because the hot side didn't work out for them... most people are swapping because they want something larger.
also the hotside of the atp kit may not be such a big deal... i don't think anyone is scrapping their turbo kit because the hot side didn't work out for them... most people are swapping because they want something larger.
l8r)
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From: Into the Void
Yesterday, 04:34 PM #55
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Supernot, If I remember correctly, As3ar made something like 350whp with NO OTHER MODS, just the ATP 3071 kit. Mobounce made 391 on pump with mods.
Also somewhere in these forums is a guy running a AMS 3071 with all supporting mods and made 378 whp with full boost in the mid 4000's.
So what do you suppose happened, I mean surely there is no way that ams kit only made that little whp with that kind of lag, please explain.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Supernot, If I remember correctly, As3ar made something like 350whp with NO OTHER MODS, just the ATP 3071 kit. Mobounce made 391 on pump with mods.
Also somewhere in these forums is a guy running a AMS 3071 with all supporting mods and made 378 whp with full boost in the mid 4000's.
So what do you suppose happened, I mean surely there is no way that ams kit only made that little whp with that kind of lag, please explain.
I have yet to see an rnr or ams 3071 make 420+whp on pump and I doubt you have to.
Are you kidding??? That's all they do, even the Turbo Trixx Turbo kit, they also get your evo into the 11's easilly and trap at 122+++ on PUMP GAS.
So again bring some facts to the table or quit, you have added nothing but your meaningless opinion with nothing to back it up.
ANgry are we? ask Buschur/Turbo Trixx/DynoFLash ETC that these Proper Garrett turbos EASILLY make 420WHP on pump. Hell even that RNR 50 trim does so on pump gas, come on man you can't argue with that
Last edited by Supernaut; Aug 28, 2005 at 01:03 AM.
Here is some input for you guys.
Watch for some pictures of our new kit sometime this week on EVOM. I have a kit I just finished on an MR here that is going on the dyno early this week. This new kit is nothing short of AWESOME!
Manifold vs. header. I sent one of my turbo kits out to a friend/shop of mine to do some testing on his AWD dyno. It was our GT35R kit. He made some numbers with it, back then it was only about 530 I think. We were both puzzled as to why the numbers were so low. Started swapping parts out and changed the turbine housing from the OLD Mitsubishi style internally gated housing to the T3 housing. The car instantly gained 90+ whp. This brought the turbo up into the 620 whp range on an AWD Dynojet. Then he wanted to get rid of my manifold and see what a header would do. I sent him an equal length header for the kit and he dyno'd it again. The results were surprising, no HP gains up top and a loss of power through the midrange. So much for the header being superior.
Next, there are a couple different GT30's out there. The GT3076 is the largest. That is what we have used and in my opinion the difference in spool up between the GT3076 andthe GT35R isn't large enough to justify using the GT3076, you may as well go with the GT35R and have the potential for 600+ whp(Dynojet).
On our old dyno (2WD DYnojet) we made 622 whp on a 2.2 liter GT35R car at 30 psi. With a 2.0 liter GT35R car it took us 35 psi to make 633 whp. Exact same set ups other than the stroker vs 2.0.
On our new Mustang Dyno the numbers are MUCH lower. That same GT35R 2 liter car now has a stroker engine in it and is much faster than it was (seat of the pants). It now makes only 535 whp on our new dyno.
Our new black car we built. Had our complete Stage 4, AEM EMS, fuel cell etc. Also has our newest GT35R turbo kit on it. Runs our cast manifold, custom turbine housing, Tial 44 mm external gate, just like the kit we sell. The car has gone 10.3 at 141 mph. The car is at the chassis shop having a cage put in it now. When we get it back and make a gear ratio change (back to stock gears) I think you will see some new times out of the car that are even faster. This is a CAST manifold.
The car I am testing this week has our new kit, like I said, it is a GT3071. I am expecting great things from this turbo kit in both spool up and power. I am only tuning the car on straight 93 octane, per the wishes of the customer.
This week I tuned two other EVO's with our kits on them. These were the original kits we sold with the OLD style Mitsubishi internally gated housings on them. One was a BR440 kit with 93 octane and alky, it made 340 whp. The other was the BR500 kit with 110 and alky and it made 397 whp.
To give you some perspective on our dyno numbers VS. 1/4 mile time/trap speed....the black car only made 530 whp and ran 10.3 at 141 mph. My RS only made 340 whp and ran 120 mph trap speeds. Couple of customers made in the 400 whp range and ran 125 mph trap speeds.
Funny looking at those numbers as 340=120, a gain of 5 more MPH equals 400 or 60 more whp and another gain of 16 mph is 530 or 130 whp. Fairly close to be inline with 10 whp=1 mph. The 141 mph car is lighter by quite a bit than the other cars though, so that blows the 10 whp+1 mph. (Sorry thinking out loud
Watch for the new pictures and results of this GT3071 kit. I don't think there is a better priced or better built kit on the market. Very pleased with fit, finish, appearance and performance of these new kits.
Kit includes:
Cast ceramic coated manifold
GT series turbo GT3071, 3076 or GT35R
Special turbine housing with integrated wastegate port for external gate
Tial 44 mm external wastegate
Dump tube OR dump back into 02 housing
02 housing
Oil line, feed and return kit
New engine fan
The kits should be priced at $3,000 or maybe slightly under. I am doing all I can to drop the pricing and get these kits setting new records all over the place.
I am waiting on our latest run of manifolds, they are again running behind at the foundry but I am hoping for this week or next.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Watch for some pictures of our new kit sometime this week on EVOM. I have a kit I just finished on an MR here that is going on the dyno early this week. This new kit is nothing short of AWESOME!
Manifold vs. header. I sent one of my turbo kits out to a friend/shop of mine to do some testing on his AWD dyno. It was our GT35R kit. He made some numbers with it, back then it was only about 530 I think. We were both puzzled as to why the numbers were so low. Started swapping parts out and changed the turbine housing from the OLD Mitsubishi style internally gated housing to the T3 housing. The car instantly gained 90+ whp. This brought the turbo up into the 620 whp range on an AWD Dynojet. Then he wanted to get rid of my manifold and see what a header would do. I sent him an equal length header for the kit and he dyno'd it again. The results were surprising, no HP gains up top and a loss of power through the midrange. So much for the header being superior.
Next, there are a couple different GT30's out there. The GT3076 is the largest. That is what we have used and in my opinion the difference in spool up between the GT3076 andthe GT35R isn't large enough to justify using the GT3076, you may as well go with the GT35R and have the potential for 600+ whp(Dynojet).
On our old dyno (2WD DYnojet) we made 622 whp on a 2.2 liter GT35R car at 30 psi. With a 2.0 liter GT35R car it took us 35 psi to make 633 whp. Exact same set ups other than the stroker vs 2.0.
On our new Mustang Dyno the numbers are MUCH lower. That same GT35R 2 liter car now has a stroker engine in it and is much faster than it was (seat of the pants). It now makes only 535 whp on our new dyno.
Our new black car we built. Had our complete Stage 4, AEM EMS, fuel cell etc. Also has our newest GT35R turbo kit on it. Runs our cast manifold, custom turbine housing, Tial 44 mm external gate, just like the kit we sell. The car has gone 10.3 at 141 mph. The car is at the chassis shop having a cage put in it now. When we get it back and make a gear ratio change (back to stock gears) I think you will see some new times out of the car that are even faster. This is a CAST manifold.
The car I am testing this week has our new kit, like I said, it is a GT3071. I am expecting great things from this turbo kit in both spool up and power. I am only tuning the car on straight 93 octane, per the wishes of the customer.
This week I tuned two other EVO's with our kits on them. These were the original kits we sold with the OLD style Mitsubishi internally gated housings on them. One was a BR440 kit with 93 octane and alky, it made 340 whp. The other was the BR500 kit with 110 and alky and it made 397 whp.
To give you some perspective on our dyno numbers VS. 1/4 mile time/trap speed....the black car only made 530 whp and ran 10.3 at 141 mph. My RS only made 340 whp and ran 120 mph trap speeds. Couple of customers made in the 400 whp range and ran 125 mph trap speeds.
Funny looking at those numbers as 340=120, a gain of 5 more MPH equals 400 or 60 more whp and another gain of 16 mph is 530 or 130 whp. Fairly close to be inline with 10 whp=1 mph. The 141 mph car is lighter by quite a bit than the other cars though, so that blows the 10 whp+1 mph. (Sorry thinking out loud
Watch for the new pictures and results of this GT3071 kit. I don't think there is a better priced or better built kit on the market. Very pleased with fit, finish, appearance and performance of these new kits.
Kit includes:
Cast ceramic coated manifold
GT series turbo GT3071, 3076 or GT35R
Special turbine housing with integrated wastegate port for external gate
Tial 44 mm external wastegate
Dump tube OR dump back into 02 housing
02 housing
Oil line, feed and return kit
New engine fan
The kits should be priced at $3,000 or maybe slightly under. I am doing all I can to drop the pricing and get these kits setting new records all over the place.
I am waiting on our latest run of manifolds, they are again running behind at the foundry but I am hoping for this week or next.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com